Security Halt!

Doc Springer on Suicide Prevention, Warrior Healing, and Mental Health Innovation | Security Halt! Podcast Ep. 426

• Deny Caballero • Season 8 • Episode 426

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Doc Springer joins the show for a conversation about suicide prevention, trauma recovery, warrior healing, and why connection is critical for survival.

In this episode, we cover:

  • False beliefs about suicide prevention 
  • Warrior healing and peer support 
  • Innovative biological treatments 
  • Mental performance and readiness 
  • Building trust in healing relationships 
  • Advocating for yourself in mental health care 
  • The importance of connection and community 
  • Doc Springer’s new book, Fallout 

Resources Mentioned:

  • Fallout 
  • Thin Line Advisory 
  • Magnus One 
  • Task Force Dagger 
  • Stella Mental Health Treatments 

 

Chapters:
00:00 Why Authentic Healing Conversations Matter
 03:02 The Importance of Connection in Warrior Healing
 05:58 Doc Springer’s Journey into Supporting Warriors
 09:00 Why Warriors Need Mental Warfare Preparation
 11:55 The Challenges of Transitioning from Combat
 15:10 Innovative Treatments for Warrior Mental Health
 17:54 Mental Performance and Warrior Readiness
 20:49 Breaking Down Barriers to Healing
 24:01 A Holistic Approach to Mental Health and Wellness
 26:57 Walking Alongside Warriors Through Recovery
 32:33 Empowerment, Guidance, and Personal Responsibility
 36:11 Recognizing Red Flags in Healing Relationships
 39:44 The Journey to Recovery and Long-Term Healing
 43:11 How to Advocate for Yourself in Mental Health Care
 46:19 Building Trust in Public Safety and Military Communities
 48:22 Why We Need More Healers for Warriors
 53:16 Doc Springer’s Book Fallout and Its Mission
 01:01:20 Why Connection and Community Save Lives

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The Missing Mental Armor

SPEAKER_01

We have to protect and prepare people for mental warfare in the same way as we do for physical warfare.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. There's a conveyor belt bringing you into service, and there is nothing when you come back from war. There's an avenue to get you in, ready to go to combat, the best you can be prepared to go take that fight to the enemy. When you come back, it is a rotator fly out. You land at night on a tarmac, you flag a bus, you get on, get dropped off in your compound, your battery and your car is dead. In a matter of hours, oftentimes, you're taken from a combat zone back to stateside, and there's nobody ushering you back and saying, hey, let's take a neat. You guys lost two people. What happened? How are you feeling? There's nothing like that.

SPEAKER_01

Obviously, it's not scaled. Obviously, it's not commonplace and normal practice. And you know what also doesn't happen is nothing on the preparation side.

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Connection As Survival Skill

SPEAKER_03

Today, Doc, Shauna Springer, you are the guest, and uh this is your story and your world. And I just want to dive into you. Like I said before we start recording, I I think you're a magnificent guide and healer in this space, and I am truly honored to have you here to share your story.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you. I'm glad to be here, you know. Um, and I'd love to hear your opinions too. Like hopefully I say something you disagree with, let's talk it out.

SPEAKER_03

You know, that's I absolutely will, but I don't, I I think I think we agree on a lot of things. And uh the biggest thing that I have learned in this endeavor um is nobody gets through this alone. You don't get by, you don't heal in a vacuum. You don't recover alone. It is a warrior community for a reason. It's a family unit that heals together. And as human beings, I 100% understand now that it's connection. We can throw money at this problem all day, every day, and we're really good at it. But there we are not going to impact it unless we start championing the idea of connecting, getting in front of each other's faces and talking. This is great. I love this. I am passionate about this medium. But when somebody's in crisis, when someone's in danger, the phone call will do so much. It's the person that gets to that door, that opens it, that walks in and says, dude, what's going on?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah, that's the overarching theme of my work is that when we connect, we survive. It's what I wrote about in Warrior, and I continue that work. One of the very perceptive veterans, he was a retired master sergeant who lost his brother to suicide, Chris Jokomick. He saw something nobody else saw. When I sent this book out to these trusted pre-readers, I have about 10 or 12 of them. Uh, this one's for first responders and veterans. So I tried to find about 10 or 12 people in my network that have been in both communities, right? They served in the military and then they served as first responders. And um Chris is somebody that is sort of more into military camp, but he's done first response work as well. And he said, if Warrior was a new hope, he's a big Star Wars fan, then this is the Empire Strikes Back.

SPEAKER_02

Um he saw what other people didn't see.

SPEAKER_01

This is actually book two in what's writing itself in sort of a literary triad. So this book is um it's in your face, but not impolite. It's me saying, here's everything we're getting wrong about suicide prevention. These these false beliefs that have integrated themselves so deeply into our collective thinking that we don't even know it. And it's taken us off course for decades. And it's just time to fall out. It's time to break from these beliefs. So this is that book where I'm gonna just be bold and need the tribe to get behind me and with me because I really had to summon my courage to write this one and I'm bracing for impact, hopefully positive. But um, you know, there's gonna be some people who are doing what I think is not helpful. So there you have it.

How Springer Found The Warrior Tribe

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Well, you know what? Let's uh before we dive into that, yeah, how did you get in this space? How did you find yourself working and healing our warrior tribe?

SPEAKER_01

Um, okay, so my first residency rotation when I was years ago doing my um postdoctorate residency was at the Gainesville VA, and I just felt something shift when I worked with warriors, people who had served. They just felt like home to me. I didn't plan this. Um I grant that I'm an unlikely source of wisdom, having never been in the military um or a first responder in the kind of conventional sense. Um, I've done first response work to to suicides for, you know, several years of my career. So I have touch points there, but um but I wouldn't represent myself as a veteran or first responder, to be very clear. And um, and yet people that are warriors have adopted me into this fierce drive. And we just have this relationship that just works. It's a partnership founded in trust and mutual respect, and it just feels right to me. And sort of, I don't know, how do you how do you recognize when something is at the center of your purpose? It's a gut-level knowing, and that's what it was for me.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, there's one of the things I've experienced in my own healing journey is the people that really moved the needle, that moved the ball down the field for me on my behalf, when I wasn't willing to talk, when I wasn't willing to advocate, were all healers, all medical providers that never served. They were just wonderful human beings. That's the reality. I've had great military doctors, but I've had people that I never served with, that they've never served, being willing to fight people for the care that I deserved. And that's, I mean, insane amount of loyalty. I mean, that the first the first people that will go to bat aggressively, putting their own jobs at the line, never served.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think it's because doing this well, I mean, there's a difference, you've read Warrior, so you know, difference to me between doctors and docs. And a doc is somebody with their own type of warrior spirit. Different. But if a warrior is somebody who does what others can't or won't do in the service of values they hold sacred, then if you have warrior healer energy, you will absolutely fight for your patience. You will fight for your tribe because it's not a job, it's your purpose, and these are these are people that you deeply care about and respect.

Writing Fallout And Breaking Myths

SPEAKER_01

This book, Fallout, that I'm writing is an extension of that fight. He's saying, let's take the fight to all of what's not working, let's fall out, let's build something better than what you have now because it's it's not what you need.

SPEAKER_03

You know, I I I want to dive into that. Um there's a lot to be I I had the same same misconception for a long time. Like, well, these these are the things that we need to champion, these are the active campaigns, let's not challenge it, let's not go against the grain. We gotta, we all have to coalesce. But you hear the same messages and it starts to drone out. And it's like nobody, it you you finally you have to take a step back and realize like, none of this is really working. These things aren't really changing or moving the needle in the right direction, like then it's I need to go the opposite way. I need to be willing to move away and go against the tribe, go against the herd to find some sort of real lasting truth and information that can really like that that I can champion that I can feel is true based on what I'm doing, based on my lived experience. How hard was it for you to sit down and say, holy cow, this has been my life's work, and now I'm gonna have to write something and advocate for things that are going to shake up the uh the establishment?

SPEAKER_01

It's hard. I mean, it's it's always hard, right? It takes courage, and the only reason to do it is because you feel like you have no better choice. Our choice is this change or bury more of our bravest. And when you have that choice in front of you, and you realize it's only by breaking from false beliefs that real healing can begin, the path is clear. If you're somebody like me, that this is my purpose as a healer is to take warriors and first responders and bring them into a place of healing. You have no choice, but I do have a tribe at my back. I've always had this tribe at my back. People like yourself, where I reach out to you and I say, I'm shy about podcasts, I don't, you know, love to do the publicity promotion stuff, and you're like, here, I have three podcasts, like I'll bring you on tomorrow. Like, um, because it's not about me, it's about the work and the impact and about this tribe that's there at my back. And so I don't want people to look at me, Doc Springer, and say, Oh, whatever about me. I want them to see the work and to know that this comes from my place of deepest purpose and is based on years of work with warriors, and I hold their stories and I hold their wisdom and I hold their truths, and then I bring my own insight to it and to help people really understand hey, mental warfare is part of this path. It's not the exception to the rule, you're not looking for that one person who's distressed among the many who aren't. Um it's part of the path, and we have to protect and prepare people for mental warfare in the same way as we do for physical warfare, and we're not doing that.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. Absolutely. There's

The Conveyor Belt Into And Out

SPEAKER_03

a conveyor belt bringing you into service. Um, and there is nothing when you come back from war. Absolutely nothing. I was just speaking um here, I'm we're my wife's still active duty. We're stationed here at um Maxwell Air Force Base, and I had the pleasure and privilege to go speak to a class of you know, Air Force senior leaders who are going through that course about the complexities of TBI, PTSD, and what it means to serve, what it means to go through a life and SOF and be on the other side, and how do you advocate for yourself, advocate for others, and take care of yourself. And one of the biggest things that we were talking about that in in that small group discussion is that there's an avenue to get you in, ready to go to combat, be the best that you can be prepared to go take that fight to the enemy. And in my experience, when you come back, it is a rotator flyout, you land at night on a tarmac, you flag a bus, you get on, get dropped off of your compound, your battery in your car is dead, it's raining, your key card doesn't let you into your compound because you've been gone for too long, and then you have to hotwire a car to get off base to get home.

SPEAKER_01

Create a new login for your cat card. What?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. In a matter of hours, oftentimes, you're taken from a combat zone back to stateside, and there's nobody ushering you back and saying, hey, let's take a knee. You guys lost some people. We need to talk about this. How did it how did it impact you? You lost a friend, you lost a brother. What happened? How are you feeling? There's nothing like that. I have been pulled in though.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, it doesn't exist at scale. There are certain soft units that have pulled me in for years to do that with their unit. If they had a particularly bad deployment in a highly confidential circle, I have supported some units around that, but obviously it's not scaled. Obviously, it's not commonplace and normal practice, right? Um, and you know what also doesn't happen is nothing on the preparation side. So if if we agree that mental warfare is part of this calling, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. In other words, like you cannot see messed up things and not have some messed up thoughts. You're gonna have it. So um, what are we doing on the front end to prepare people to understand mental warfare? How it arises, traumatic grief, how do you navigate traumatic grief? Yes, suddenly you would take a bullet for none of that. And it's not for lack of trying. I mean, I'm I'm walking a line here between being convicted on this and at a point where I'm hitting a wall. I have gone to every and politely advocated to people in the Marine Corps, people in the army, people in the transition assistance program to get these insights into their training, into their transition programs, had a lot of really wonderful, exciting, and hopeful conversations about, oh yes, yes, we deeply believe this, and then been shut down through a grueling process of, well, but we can't contract with you because you're an individual and we contract with these big companies that have prior work performance. And so I have had no pathway to get these insights, and it's not for lack of trying. So at this point, I'm just gonna write a book about it and post it and ask for the tribe to just like do what the tribe can do and just make it happen. Just hit that wall with me until it just crumbles and we have a different philosophy for how to take warriors all the way through their training and all the way through transition.

SPEAKER_03

And

Train For Dark Thoughts Early

SPEAKER_03

you know, let's let's uh let's tap in that. If if it was a perfect world and we could implement this, in your view and what you've seen, how can we better prepare our warriors, not just going into warfare, but on the way back?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. So it starts before the mental warfare comes. You know, it starts with a different understanding. So again, instead of like, oh, there may be some people who have dark and self-destructive thoughts. Let's accept the fact that everybody is going to have times when they have dark and self-destructive thoughts. You can't be exposed to death, suicides, be a suicide loss survivor, people that you would take a bullet for and not have those thoughts from time to time. And those thoughts doesn't mean you're gonna act on them. So it's just that's the mental warfare. I don't even talk about suicide prevention anymore. I just talk about you're gonna have mental warfare. Let's expect that. And stop thinking about it as though you're gonna be able to tell these signs, you know, like warriors are never gonna show the signs in many cases. They're professionally good at compartmentalizing their pain. Many cases you'll never see it coming. So that's a civilian model that doesn't work for you guys. You need something different. So then it's um okay, let's switch the analogy from looking for that needle in the haystack of that one guy or gal that's suffering to leaders and people that are training from the front end to understand you've got thousands of frogs in the pot, and in this cauldron, they're all boiling all the time. And so it's about discernment of which frog is boiling a little bit too fast, needs to be taken out, put through a healing deployment, and then brought back on the line without losing their identity. What are the actual ways that risk shows up? Why do we miss so many who are at risk? And what kinds of biological plus psychological interventions get people healed and back on the line, not sidelined, not permanently discharged when they could be back on the line if we could heal them?

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. Retention

Retention Trust And Safe Care

SPEAKER_03

is the biggest thing we have to focus on. I want guys to stay. I want our war fighters to take a knee heal, and we have to look at retention. It's a national security issue. And there's so much we could do, but people, like you said earlier, it everybody kicks the can down the road. Because there's like, there's the idea that, like, well, yeah, he might be a seal, and yeah, he might be a ranger, but at the end of the day, there's kids lining up to do this. But what about right now with the culture and how individuals like myself, and even though even though I actively say, hey, the career was amazing, there are things you can do to prepare yourself for combat. You don't have to be like me and have a fall, a complete downward spiral. You can recover from these things. People are hearing impactful influencers from SOF and from other notable units saying, like, this broke me, this damaged me. And people are starting to say, you know what? I can make a lot more money in the civilian world. I can have private adventures, I can have safaris. I don't have to go seek the next war. And I think there's something to be said about taking care of our warriors and showing our civilians, our civilian population, the amount of care that we put towards them.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, because we're breaking trust with our warrior class, otherwise. Yes. And that's what it comes down to is it isn't about this is something I talk about in the book. There's a lot of messaging about it takes the strength of a warrior to ask for help. That's not the issue. It's not a deficit of strength. It's because it's not safe enough to get the help you need, and because we're not showing warriors that there's a pathway to get healed and get back on the line. If we could take care of it all the way through proactively and when things come up, with a better assessment of who needs what and you know, a shame-free pathway to get them tuned up and back on the line, and then it they don't feel broken. Also, I don't exceed that if people feel broken, they are broken. I think many times people have never heard about or had access to very innovative biological treatments that can do a lot to heal people, even in places where at one time we said, well, if you have, you know, a mild traumatic brain injury, like you're gonna have to live with it. But now with neuroplasticity and some of the treatments that are available now, even that, I don't know. You know, like I've seen people heal from things that they were told were a life sentence, and you're broken and you have this disorder, and and now they're symptom-free. Not everyone, but but many people. So you're not necessarily broken. And it's such a timely thing that you're mentioning this because you know, the U.S. is now again apparently at war, right? Um, and so now the military is going to be thinking about it.

SPEAKER_03

This

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SPEAKER_01

If we have to go and deploy, how do we train people? And it's there are so many smart people that that realize if you invest hundreds of thousands of dollars building a warrior and training that warrior, it doesn't make sense to lose that warrior as opposed to taking on board a different philosophy, different set of insights, even when they come from unlikely sources, and different treatments that can heal people so you can keep that warrior in a place where he or she has a sustainable career.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. There are there are so many individuals out there championing

Biological Tools That Actually Heal

SPEAKER_03

the same message. I just sat down uh a couple of weeks ago and it's current episode that's published, uh Jeff Dartia from Task Force Dagger.

SPEAKER_01

Oh yeah. Yeah, Task Force Dagger. Yes.

SPEAKER_03

We we've known about the importance of providing warfighters with not only nutritional supplementation that's that's that that has been proven to help with cognitive function, but also looking at other modalities, other ways that we can enhance readiness that is right now on the shelf available, but we don't we we just we would rather lose the individual. You The amount of money it takes to get somebody when I was at my my absolute prime, the prime Green Beret, to send me the free fall school, JM, advanced tactical infiltration of JM, go to sniper school, all these, I mean, millions of dollars. And then if you would just take a little bit of time, hey, you've had some really horrible jumps and landings. Let's get you healed up. Let's put, let's get some stem cells, let's get you treated right now. I mean, and and the thing that blows me away, it's it doesn't cost that much money. It doesn't cost that much. And when we look at small, and I and I understand healing isn't just for the soft community, but it is a very small demographic. And just that much of focus on healing can show the numbers. You can study that demographic and then show the data and say, look, we just tested all a seventh group and we provided them with X amount of treatments with this modality, and everybody's back in the green. And now we can amplify it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

The best case scenario. Because you guys get stuff that nobody else gets, you know, of all of the different branches and different parts of every piece of the military, the soft community gets the most innovative stuff. Like they are the most advanced best case scenario, and what you're saying is still true. So like I'm really curious to know what you think is the block because essentially it's things like Stella Ganglion block that Jeff Dartia has funded, and Task Force Dagger has partnered with Stella Mental Health to fund and support. Um, there are legal treatments that are available now. TMS is another one that's incredible. Those protocols are getting shorter and shorter and more practical. Um, there's, you know, when used responsibly, medically responsibly, ketamine is great with uh SGB. Stella has a protocol that combines, it's called the soft protocol that combines SGB and Stella. So there's all of that, right? And then there's this tendency to focus on the physical body too, like the stem cells, and like let's bring in a bunch of people to train you, and um, we're gonna, you know, do do this kind of regeneration work. Nothing on the mental warfare side. That that whole side of things is like a flappy muscle, completely atrophied. Nobody's ever worked it out, nobody has the insights they need to get traction. And that's my focus is we gotta prepare people on the mental warfare side and then tune them up in between combat deployments. Have them see docs who they trust. I'm not the only doc. There are other docs. Some of them are embedded, some are wonderful, but they need time with those people that really get it, and they need treatments in combination with docs that get it. That's what helps people to really heal.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And and I'll I will add to this the um there's a shortage of remarkable human beings like yourself. There are tons. There are tons of individuals out there. Chris free, amazing individual. That man gives so much of his time. Dr. Gordon, shout out to him, amazing individual. There are so many impactful warrior healers out there, but it's still, we need to be able to give them resources and tools that they can take ownership and not make it seem like it's a fruo-frou soft thing. It is an important, it is a super important part of your healing. We talk about performance for your body, just like you said, but we need to talk about mental performance. Like we need to be able to give those tools and wrap it up in a packaging that says this is gonna make you a more lethal, highly advanced warrior. This is gonna make you more capable on the battlefield, and as an added bonus, it's gonna make you a better father. It's gonna make you not lose your spouse.

SPEAKER_01

You might not lose custody of your kids. You might not go into a suicidal spiral because you're disconnected from the people you tried to protect at home. It does not have to be that way.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And

Lethality Culture And Self Lethality Risk

SPEAKER_03

I think it's cult, it's a problem with the culture ultimately because it's such a hyper focus on the physical body, the lethality, that you you make it, the training is amazing, the deployments are amazing, but there's nobody making the connection of your mental performance, your mental well-being is part of that domain. It's only on the backside that we look at ourselves as a holistic human being that's made up of a mind, body, and a spirit. And we realize that, like, wow, I was working on the body every single day. I was working on the mind, going to all these courses. I never poured anything in the spirit. I never poured anything back in the in into that domain. And now when you take away the mind, you take away the body, and there's nothing to uplift you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's interesting how you said it, because I've often thought this. If the sole focus of training is on lethality, you are simultaneously increasing the risk of self-lethality. If you focus only on lethality towards others and you miss all of the inner landscape and the ethos and the impact, the human impact of service, you're directly increasing the risk of self-lethality, self-destructive urges that people don't know how to understand, they don't know how to address it. Um, and it's just it's gone on long enough.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And it's it's it you're 100% correct on that. And I think that that is a problem that people aren't really tuning into. We don't address the whole human. We don't address the entire soldier, the entire, you know, special operations guy. It's just we we just see you as that one aspect of your mission, and that's it. And I think that's been a long problem that I identified. Everybody was trying to make me the best I could be at the job, and nobody was trying to help mentor and coach me to be the best version of myself outside of the job. It was completely removed from the equation. And I think that needs to be we when we talk about mentorship, it needs to extend outside of the duty hours. It needs to extend. We have to be good stewards of the entire experience of what it means to be a service member. Like I want you to be able to go home and be there for your family, but nobody's championing that. And that's to me that that what I was talking about, the connection, that's the one of the most powerful things.

SPEAKER_01

It is part of the culture though, in a sense.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's just if people could make this connection we're talking about. So humans are more important than hardware, right? For soft truth, right? Okay, the connection, right? People need to make is what does that mean? It means you prepare the human for the mental warfare that is part of this calling. And you prepare them to sustain connection with their home front tribe as much as with the tribe that they serve with. These are strong deterrents from self-lethality. Um, so I feel like I have seen really good leaders in SOF that really do make this connection. I want to be fair as I'm also being critical of this of a systemic problem. There are exceptions where some of the leaders that have recognized that have brought me in for these confidential consultations with their units after certain events have happened or somebody they're worried about. And it's not clinical, like the work I'm doing. People end up talking to me about um, you know, losing somebody suddenly that they love, um, somebody they lost to suicide while they were deployed. Their spouse got very sick, they are worried about their kid. Um, like the human stuff that adds weight to your rucksack. That's what people talk about. Those are not diagnosable problems. Um, those are things that people need insight so they can help get traction with those things. And

The Wayfinder Model For Healing

SPEAKER_01

so it's and it's the same with, you know, now that I've started working with sheriffs and you know, police and fire leaders and peer teams, and I'm doing these non-confid non um, not non-confidential, extremely confidential, non-clinical consultations, to be clear. They talk about stuff that isn't a diagnosis that if you don't talk about it, increases their allostatic load and puts them at risk. And that's what I'm trying to stand up is a third path. There's such an important piece for docs on the ground to do the clinical work, and peers are so important too. And there's a third path I'm trying to create I don't even really have a name for. So I asked my husband, what would you call the work I do? Because it's not diagnosing people and keeping medical notes. He said it's like you're a psychological wayfinder. And I was like, Yeah, I think that fits. Like, that's what I do. I see the issue and I give people traction in a respectful, culturally aligned way, and then they they just they can do stuff with that.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

That is that is a such a powerful statement when it comes to healing.

SPEAKER_03

We we often get this idea that somebody has to outline everything for us, but we we need a guide. We need somebody to walk alongside us, not march in front of us and pull us along. And that's what's what's completely missing sometimes. It's and I've seen, man, uh I've seen some of the best, best therapists do that. And and guy, and shout out to you, Amanda, if you're still listening after all these years. By far one of the greatest individuals I've ever met. Not from a service community, not from the military, not first. She just understood the importance of highlighting and understanding the goals. This is what we need to do. This is how we're gonna achieve them. And I'm here with you. We're this is a journey that I am not in front of you, I'm alongside you. And we're gonna maybe we'll pause and we'll highlight something. And at the very end, you you I think we both understood like this is the end. This is the end. And that's what's missing with a that a lot of people complain about when they go to a therapist through one source. Everybody's always constantly like, okay, we're gonna keep going, we're gonna keep going. At some point, you have to pack up and go on the journey by yourself and take all the tools you're given and put them into work and actually continue living your life. And it's sure, if the wheels fall off, if things happen, you reach back out.

SPEAKER_01

Go back to trusted doc.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, but it's not meant to be a constant journey where you're beholden to another human being as the person who has the answers.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's fostering a dependency. A doc does not do that. So I'm a public advocate for short bursts of therapy with deep trust and then go and travel the road for a while. It sounds like that, provided I don't think I know her, but that tracks for me on the way that a doc would behave. And it's so funny that you say this because I just did a training a few days ago for a uh treatment program that's working with veterans and first responders. And I said exactly that. I said, when you work with warriors and first responders, it's a matter of walking with them, not pulling them through your treatment plan and telling them that you've got this treatment plan all set up and you're gonna, you know, help get them well. And it's not, you know, walking behind them and always saying, What do you think about that? Like it's walking right next to them, maybe half a step back, letting them lead a little bit more, but with them. And they ran this thing through Chat GPT, this training I did, and created this outcome measure. And it said, Where do you stand with warriors when you're working with them? And the correct answer was half a step behind them. And I was like, oh, you know, is it like quite what it meant? Um, but but it is kind of the the essence of what I was trying to say is it's it's that you walk with warriors in a relationship of mutual respect, and it's action-oriented and it's empowering to them, and it's respectful of who they are, and it it gives them tangible insights and guidance, and then you let them do the work, you don't do the work for them, and then at some point you say, and we're done. Like come back when you need me. So yeah, deep agreement on that.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. It's one of the most empowering things to experience uh when somebody, when you finally see it, and like I said, it it it it forever impacted me because after that, I've gone back for help. Absolutely. And yeah, I've I've met some individuals that definitely wanted me to drink their Kool-Aid and be like, oh, we're gonna see each other for 18 months. I'm like, absolutely not. I am here because I have this stick point, this sticking point right now, and I need to work through it, I need to be a better person. This is not me and you for the rest of my life, dog. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_01

That that's a guru thing. If you hear that, anybody who's listening to this, that is a big red flag. Um, you don't want to work with somebody who is gonna foster a dependency. That isn't who you need, that's not gonna be aligned with your warrior spirit. Um, the people that you want to work with don't need you. They respect you, they will walk with you, they don't need you. So if you've got people that are trying to be a guru to you, um, and trying to like be that person that you always go to for advice, absolutely not dock behavior.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And and the thing there's sadly, there's um, and when it comes to like the the soft community, there are people that are predators. They want the story of being the one that healed this guy, this this seal, this ranger.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um that's a that's yeah, that's that's the gross part.

SPEAKER_01

Um it's a good word for gross.

SPEAKER_03

It's yeah. These are lives, they're human beings, they're trying to move forward. They don't need to be part of your book club. They don't need to be the person that's connecting you to another Green Beret, another soft professional. And that's what I what I realized. I I I need to always let people know, like, hey, you will you will know you're dealing with a great provider and a great healer the moment they say, hey, we're done. Yeah, we're done.

SPEAKER_01

Like, yeah, I don't need you. I like you, but I don't need you. What you need is your own strength. And here I see it. So so let me know, you know, if you hit a rough patch, but otherwise, let's graduate you. You should be thinking about that from the start. Because otherwise, if if you're working with the other kind of provider that we're talking about, they're not seeing you as a full human. You know, that's a transactional relationship on some level. Your story, your clout, your whatever.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

You can't do deep work from that place of distrust.

SPEAKER_03

No. You'll never fully heal. And I think a lot of guys in this career field, in this, in this community, they can fall victim to it because that's part of the trauma that they had. They're looking for that, that, that protector. They're looking for that individual that's gonna be there for them. And it doesn't matter how old you are, until you heal that, you will see somebody be like, oh man, they got my back. Feels good, it feels safe. And in reality, it's like, no, they're they're preying on you. They know the things that you're dealing with and they're exploiting it. And that's the gross part.

SPEAKER_01

Um so let's get practical, okay? Really quick.

Spotting Gurus And Treatment Dependency

SPEAKER_01

I want to give give your listeners something practical. If you want to find out how somebody thinks, then you ask them when you're first meeting with a doctor or a doc, we'll see which one it is, right? How long do your patients typically stay in treatment? And when do you know it's time to graduate them? Ask that question and see what they say. They better have a good answer, or if they don't, then that gives you some data you might want to listen to.

SPEAKER_03

Yep. Yeah. That's there is a pathway to approaching seeing a therapist, seeing a counselor. It should not be an ongoing thing. I think that that's one of the big myths that I I just absolutely cannot stand to see somebody continue going through because at the end of the day, it's more harmful. You if you are left to continue going through life with training wheels, how are you gonna ever really truly figure out how to be you, how to really engage in life? And I think we need to be empowering each other. We need to be able to have those moments where it's like, oh man, I stumbled. Okay, I'm okay. I still have tools. I know how to get back on the right track, I'm still good. Get up and move forward.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah, I'm not super compassionate. Maybe it's my like Nordic side. Like I I can be, right? But I tend to err on the side of like, get up and fight. And I'm gonna help you. That's why it works with warriors, because that's stories shape culture.

SPEAKER_03

They build trust. And when they're told the right way, they move people to action. That's what we do at Security Hall Media. We don't just produce content, we create authentic, impactful, and purpose-driven storytelling. Podcasters, nonprofits, brands, and leaders who are on a mission. For people who've lived real experiences and want their message to actually matter, from podcast production and video to strategic storytelling and distribution. We hope you clarify your voice, elevate your brand, and connect with the audience you're trying to serve. If you have a story worth telling and a purpose behind it, Security Hall Media is here to help you tell it the right way. Click the link in the episode description to learn more today.

SPEAKER_01

How I think, how I am, how I operate with myself, with other people. Um, there's no pity here. Respect and pity don't commingle well. So if I respect you, I'm gonna challenge you. And warriors, they yearn to be tested and challenged. But at a certain point, they need to go and challenge themselves.

SPEAKER_03

So it's so true.

Moving Beyond PTSD As Identity

SPEAKER_03

And and you're speaking right now to another problem that I have I've seen when we transition and we get ushered into the VA system, they want you to feel and put on that warm jacket of a diagnosis. I'm broken, I can't do anything. And it's like, yeah, you are broken. You can't do anything. Here you go, here's your medication. And you take that. And by and large, when I talk to individuals that that identify, then they they wear that PTSD diagnosis, that that mental health diagnosis as a proud badge, it's like, brother, sister, we can we can fight back. You can recover from these things.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. It doesn't have to be your identity. It doesn't have to be a life sentence. Again, Jeff D'Arty and Task Force Dagger have been instrumental in advancing innovations that can heal post-traumatic stress injuries. And the best requests I got, I spent my first eight years of my career at the VA in like a very busy clinic as a frontline mental health psychologist. And I actually had patients say to me, Can you write me a letter? I said, Well, I don't know, it depends because I'm not going to write to your disability. Um, that's not what I'm about. And they said, no, it's the opposite. Now that I'm asymptomatic, I would rather go and get a job because my a job feels like what I need to do and it will pay me more than being service connected. So can you write me a letter that says to this police department that this veteran you worked with no longer meets criteria for PTSD? I would write that letter in a flash. It's such a joy to write that letter and give that to that veteran and say, and we're done. Go and get that job, live into your purpose. You're like a German Shepherd, you need to work. Being sidelined isn't good for your psyche if you have a warrior spirit. Get back on the line.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah, and it's not something that's talked about. These diagnoses are by and large handed to individuals and say, well, this is this is what you have for the rest of your life. And if you settle into that, it becomes an excuse to not be the best version of yourself. It becomes an excuse to be, for lack of better words and better phrasing, it becomes an excuse to be a piece of shit. It becomes an excuse to be mean, to be hostile, to be rude to everybody. Oh, the the um uh disgruntled veteran. No, you can be a good, kind-hearted individual and still be a badass. You can still be that lethal individual that can protect somebody that needs uh needs help in a moment of danger. And you don't have to be rude. You don't have to be disgruntled like that. I think that's one of the biggest problems that we have right now. This this idea that we have to own this like a badge of honors. No, it's a diagnosis. If you if you had a broken arm, you wouldn't walk around. I mean, unless you're a little kid where you're You you know, be proud to show off your cast. But you don't walk around forever and be like, Yeah, I got a broken arm. Like, no, it heals, it heals, recovers.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yep. It can be healed. Injuries can be healed. You know, people are not broken. There's a whole world of stuff out there beyond what I learned in grad school. And I've been fortunate to have a front row seat to how all this innovation is developing with different protocols and biological interventions, interventional psychology or psychiatry is what it would be called. But um, you know, there's a there's a movie called Warrior's Journey that Kyle Bergquist put out. Roger Sparks was in that. He's somebody a lot of guys know and respect and talks about, you know, some of the things that are even coming down the pipe in terms of some of the psychedelic treatments have tremendous potential when done in a medically responsible way. We've still got some things to figure out with that. Um, you know, I'm on the side of innovate like lives depend on it, but do it safely, right? So that's that tension. I think there's still some guardrails that have to be figured out with some of it, but um, powerful things are coming, just like people are getting a lot of cancer, right, nowadays. Like it's just happening to younger and younger people in our community, and even that, not a life sentence. Like you could heal from that, and there are always medical innovations that are coming and developing. And so if you can live long enough for things to happen, maybe cancer will be cured. Hepatitis C had that story. I remember all my patients that had hepatitis C in the VA for for years and years. All of a sudden there was a cure, not like a thing that maintains your symptoms at a lower level, but like a cure that could happen. And I think it is happening for many people right now with post-traumatic stress symptoms. So just so much hope if people just knew what was available.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. And

Self Advocacy And Fear Of Reporting

SPEAKER_03

and then approached it with their own curiosity and did some research. Like that's one of the biggest things I tell people advocate for yourself, be informed. You have the ability now, more than ever, to get online and find peer-reviewed studies, read books, be hungry to understand what's happening here and in here. Like you're a whole being. You are you're not dealing just with TBI, you're dealing with moral injury. Understand everything that you're going through. Ask for help, but be informed. I remember when when Operator Syndrome was just being just being talked about, a lot of doctors outside of you know treatment centers like Star and outside of the Intrepid Spirit, they didn't know about it. So yeah, I walked in with the white paper printed out and highlighted and be like, and and with a history of what I went through. Here's all my significant events, here's everything that I ever went through. And it's like, wow, okay. Absolutely. You you meet the criteria for all this. And how many years did you did you serve? And oh, how many concussions? Like, we we don't get this information. Nobody ever talks about it. Nobody ever talks about being prepared to talk to a doctor, and especially for men. I don't know why we're so guarded, but I remember going to so many different doctor appointments while I was in the service and just saying, no, I'm fine. I'm good. I'm good. There's nothing wrong. Like it's it's a part of the culture. Why is that?

SPEAKER_01

You know why? You know why that is 100%. Staying on the job, baby.

SPEAKER_03

You're not gonna take me off free fall status. That's right.

SPEAKER_01

That's the calculation you're making, right? It goes back to it's not a matter of a deficit of courage or takes courage to ask for help. You don't want to lose your job. The job your family depends on, the job that is not a job. It's not a job. It's a it's a calling, it's your identity. So going to a doctor you don't trust is an identity threat.

Building Safe Systems In Public Safety

SPEAKER_01

Every time warriors are gonna say, no, I'm fine, until we create structures and supports, and this is why I'm standing up thin line advisory for public safety, because the same dynamic happens. They don't want to be sidelined. Who could blame them? But if you create a structure and support where I can go in there and do confidential non-clinical consultations, they're dying to talk. People crack, crack open because now it's safe and now they're talking to somebody that gets it, and that's desperately needed.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I would say that our our law enforcement officers are dealing with a crisis that is just unbelievable. I didn't understand the lack of resources and the dangers that they they they faced on a daily basis, um, and the impact. They can't, they can't just walk into a P3 office and talk to a therapist. If if they self-report, it's like, well, now you're a liability, and I'm sorry, but we can't have that in this department. Like, how do we begin to address that? How do we begin to help them get more care?

SPEAKER_01

In some departments, in many departments, but not in all. Again, like just like I've seen what right looks like in some progressive soft leaders and units, some sheriffs and the ones I'm working with are not that way. They are not that way. Some of them even go so far as to say to me, take care of my people. I don't need to know what you talked about or who you talked to. I'm just gonna pay you hourly for this many hours a month. Tell me if you need more than that. Take care of my people. Because the whole thing works on trust. They know my mission, my character, and my purpose. And so they've set up a system that's truly safe. And that way, if somebody's struggling, they can reach out to me. We can get to them before there's administrative consequences, right? We everybody has their back. So, like I have plenty of examples now of what right looks like, and it just needs to be migrated to more public safety leaders. And I won't work with every one of them. You know, I won't work with the ones that want the association, but they won't listen to what I have for them. Not that they have to do everything I say, you know, they're still the general, so to speak, but generals have advisors and they trust those advisors to know things that they're not supposed to have to know, right? And if you take those insights on board and you know you're leading a tribe, not a group of employees, this is not a job for people. It's a calling. It requires a new approach and different questions.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

Training More Docs For This Work

SPEAKER_03

You know, we we have to obviously acknowledge that we do have a shortage of individuals that are in this fight as providers. In your experience, how do we make or how do we create a culture that makes more doc springers? How do we start that that change? Is it curriculum? Is it is it additives we can put in the water? How do we create more versions of you?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you. That's a very like kind question, first of all, just to acknowledge that. But I think it's two parts. I think first of all, it's not everybody can be a warrior, not everybody can be a doc. Like that's a hard truth. Like it takes a certain kind of person that has a certain kind of healing warrior spirit to do this work. So it isn't okay to say I'd like to have impact with first responders and veterans, and I think I can just migrate all of my generalizable training to this group. You can't. So it takes a certain kind of person because people that are warriors will recognize that spirit in you in a nanosecond. And if you don't have it, they'll know it, and they'll drop out of care. Um, my friend uh Dr. Robin Sonier and I did a free course on TPN.health called Good Intentions, Bad Outcomes by Veterans and First Responders Drop Out of Care with Otherwise Skilled Providers. I'll send it to you for your show notes. We had about a thousand people show up, which was encouraging. We didn't charge anything for it. And she and I talked through, um, in a general introductory way, what uh what are this the barriers to people building trust with civilians and other, you know, even providers that have served. Um, and that was an intro course. But, you know, the minute we said, okay, we're gonna charge a minor amount, the signups just dropped. So if organizations want to do this, then I'm happy to train all of their providers. I have extensive content and I'm ready to go with an assessment of what it looks like to be a doc training, all of that. So it's partly a deficit in training because what you get in grad school isn't what you need. I write about this in the book. Like we don't learn about, usually don't ever get a single course in grief, let alone traumatic grief. Um, don't get a single course in moral injury. It's not a diagnosis, and it's more related to suicide than post-traumatic stress injury in my experience, and people don't know about it. Um, there are so many things like survivor guilt and you know how to help people heal from moral injuries that providers just don't know about. So that is something I'm offering to my clients, is that's part of what they ask me to do is train up their workforce or train up their peer teams or you know, really equip them with new insights. But the other part is not everybody can do it. You know, there needs to be this kind of piece where the clients say, I recognize that this person is a doc. And the people who are not building trust should deploy their very good skills with other communities and populations that need what they have to offer and not keep trying to come back and say, but I want to work with warriors.

SPEAKER_03

Um it's it's an attractive demographic, and we should honor it with people that can make you know impactful change that have the right uh you know experience and have the right cultural competency. That's the biggest thing. Um because there are some amazing people, but you they're just not the right fit. I remember one individual uh at a at the old unit that I was in, just an amazing person, great person, not a doc, not somebody. I I would hang out and have lunch all day with them, but they they were not the person for the job.

SPEAKER_01

Right? Yes, like yes, for some population, a good person and a good provider is gonna be a great magic for some population. For some of us, this is a calling. And recognizing that it isn't just a job and that some of us are called to do this, I think is a piece that's hard to talk about. It sounds a little bit arrogant, but I don't mean it that way. I just I've seen that there's this narrow window, very high stakes to engage the trust. And if you can't do it, warriors will never come back to treatment or will drop out for years before they're willing to try again. So that's where I'm coming from is you've gotta have people that can get it right and can instill confidence that they can walk with you through the trenches of mental warfare. And if you don't have people like that, it's a problem. It's a problem.

Fallout Beliefs AI And Thin Line Advisory

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. You know, we're we're coming down to the to the the last few minutes of this segment, but I want to give you time to really talk about the book and really explain to us the importance of this, where it's coming from and what are your hopes and how you hope it'll impact the audience.

SPEAKER_01

Thanks. Um, okay, so I just got my galley copy. It's not going to have a little band across the front, like the, but this is the this is the book. Fallout, 10 common beliefs that are killing our bravest, and the truths that can save them. Um, CZ Ramon Colón Lopez, our fourth senior enlisted advisor, the chairman of joint chiefs of staff, wrote the forward for the book. Um, I reached out to him and I said, I need somebody really brave that everybody knows is really brave to stand with me. And now I need the tribe to show up because I'm taking on all of these established beliefs that have taken us in the wrong direction for decades. So each chapter talks about one belief. For example, chapter one is suicide prevention awareness campaigns often increase risk other than decrease risk. And I explain why that is and explain, you know, how that hits people with a warrior spirit and how that increases risk. Even with the best of intentions, millions of dollars have been spent on awareness campaigns, and they're doing the opposite of what they intend to do in many cases. So go through all these beliefs, and then the last three chapters are my vision for what I think what I think you guys need. So one of them is about the biological revolution, about the missing biological intervention piece, um, and this world of opportunities to get healed, not just manage symptoms using precision medicine and biological treatments. Then the next chapter is on um sort of like AI technology forward movement that we're seeing everywhere and what happens when we're running really fast in the wrong direction, where the people who are creating these apps are disconnected from the population they serve, um, are incapable of building trust and really like walking in the trenches with people in the first place, and they're the ones building the apps. We're gonna get pseudo-connection that's gonna move us in the wrong direction really fast. And so I give an example of what right looks like. Um, my colleagues and I at Magnus One mostly focused on first responders, but this is a team of people that knows how to walk with people, and so what we design and the content I've shared comes from that place of understanding, where the technology facilitates human connection, never replaces it. And then the the final chapter is about thin line advisory, the new kind of initiative that I've stood up for public safety, also for I'm always willing to work with you know military units as well, but thin line advisory kind of talks about the people that are public servants in the public safety world. And I'd like to work with progressive sheriffs, chiefs, leaders, and peer teams to build something better than we have now. Not just suicide prevention, but um mental peak performance, not just wellness, which doesn't speak to the warrior spirit. They don't want to be well, they want to perform at a peak level, right? And so giving people those insights and really helping them understand mental warfare, but also the positive side of how do you develop the elasticity, the elasticity, the identity piece, the flexibility and range of motion in your nervous system relationships and identity that is associated with peak performance. And so that's what I'm doing through Thin Line Advisory. And so this book is like part two of a three-part um triad. And I think maybe we'll talk about the next one, but it's it's writing itself in my head, and I want to focus on this one. I was like tempted to like, but then a thought said, no, just keep it focused on what I'm doing right now, and and that'll come when it comes.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it's a superpower. Uh I've thought about writing a book for many years, and um, I don't think I'm there yet. But to be working on one book and then already be working it internally.

SPEAKER_01

If it helps you though, there's a lot of things I'm really bad at. Really, like, you know, there's like part part of my brain around like doing math in my head is like atrophied and necrotic because like I can't do it. Like there's a lot of things that I'm you know, so I have highly specified like skill sets and compensatory deficits, if that helps.

SPEAKER_03

I think that does help because uh it helps me understand that we're all humans. We we

Peer Mentors And The Veteran Mentor Project

SPEAKER_03

we all have our strengths and our weaknesses, and it's important uh for you out there listening, like you can be part of the solution. You can be part of this fight right now. And the number one thing that you have to work on is just being a better version of yourself. Once you get far enough in your journey, I say it's 70%. Once you get to about 70%, turn around, do an about face, look into the void, and help somebody else get out. We need connection, we need peer-to-peer supporters. I think it's one of the greatest things. Before we used to, we it used to not be acknowledged. We used to always say, Oh, you just need a counselor. I'm like, no, let me tell you something. The most powerful thing you can do is heal, recover, get better. Because people are looking at you. They're gonna want that. They're gonna see the life back in your eyes, they're gonna see you moving through about your daily day, day-to-day actions a lot easier. And they're gonna say, Man, I want that. How can I get there? And if you hear it, if you just see somebody, turn around, guide them. A five-minute conversation today will save somebody's life. If you're just willing to just connect with somebody, I'm telling you, that's what we need. More hope, more one-on-one conversations with somebody on the phone, through a meme. Yeah, that's that's that's good too. But if you can break bread with somebody right now, if you can just help somebody get through their worst day, I'm telling you, that's a big part of the problem right there, man. A big part of us healing is just holding space for each other, being human beings. We don't have to have the answers. I'm not asking you to give them the answers. I'm just asking you to sit and hold space with them. Don't figure it out. And if you can, share a resource with them. Share something that worked for you. Don't push it on them. I've been there. Just show them. You know, Doc, I can't thank you enough for being here. Please share with us the name of the book, when it's going to be out, and how can people connect with you?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I'll mention another thing about connection because I'm waiting on a final decision on a grant for the it's called the Veteran Mentor Project, Incorporated. I became a senior advisor to a group of veterans. Um, and for the last year and a half, we've been working on this grant. And it sounds like they're going to fund it, but we should know by April. If it gets funded, we will be building something very innovative that will bring veterans who are coming out of the military through transition through transition with mentors that I will equip and train for how to take them through transition. So we're going to build an army of mentors, find the right people. If you're like if we get this grant, people should reach out to me in like April or May if they're interested in coming on that team and being part of that mission. Um, we are going to be needing people that have a lot more to give, who are mature, balanced, um, emotionally healthy people with boundaries. I mean, I know what we're looking for with the warrior spirit who want to come back and build tribe and help people come all the way back from military service. So I'm hoping that gets funded. Um, and if it does, that's something I'm gonna be building, you know, in the next year as well. But um

How To Support The Book Launch

SPEAKER_01

the book, it the book that we're talking about is Fallout 10 Common Beliefs That Are Killing Our Bravest and the Truths That Can Save Them. Um, it comes out on March 12th. I'm gonna list it for 12 bucks. Um and the pre-orders are $2.99 for the ebook pre-orders. They're open now. Um until March 12th. I mean, you'll because pre-orders make a book visible. Otherwise, they get buried under thousands of books on Amazon. So anybody can pre-order it now. The actual book comes available on March 12th, and that would be the time that would be most helpful. And then putting a review, a supportive review, as soon as possible, once you've had a chance to take it in, um, is is the other way that I could really use the support and help from the tribe to really um make this have the impact I intend.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. Well, you you got security halts backing on this. We'll get this uh on the top of the deck. Um, you're a remarkable uh healer and member of Warrior Tribe. Uh, your name has been on my top list of books, so uh I am grateful God made this happen. I I don't doubt that his divine intervention and perfect timing is back to play because um the most powerful thing in this community is when people champion somebody to help them. And you have done so much for a warrior tribe, and your name is constantly out there. So, on behalf of all of us, thank you for what you're doing. Thank you, what you're continuing to do. And uh, I can't wait to see where where the when the next book comes and where you go, because uh we need you at at the at the top. We need you leading the next fight, uh, to helping heal us. Uh, and I think that um Got a lot of work to do, but I'm hopeful. I'm an optimist. I think I'm happy.

SPEAKER_02

I'm hopeful too.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. We're not out of the fight. We're not out of this thing. And the more we champion the right things, yes, how we can make an impact, we can move the needle forward and get get the ball to the goal line. Let's drop those numbers.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it doesn't have to be this way. It doesn't have to be this way. Thank you for having me on. Thank you for being responsive. When I said, can you squeeze me in? Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. That was so fast.

SPEAKER_01

I I really appreciate it. I'm I'm grateful to have this chance to talk about it. I did have a pretty strong cup of coffee, so hopefully it wasn't coming at you too strong.

SPEAKER_03

No, this is perfect. I I honestly, uh an open invite. Anytime you want to come, talk about anything, invite any uh or you have a new book, new new program, you are welcome in the Security Halt media channels, no matter which podcast you want to come on. Uh it's absolute, uh, like I said, that I I've been wanting to engage with you and have you on the show for a long time, and I couldn't think of a better time to do it. If people want to connect with you, where can it go, Doc?

SPEAKER_01

Um, I would say thinlineadvisory.com is a great place to kind of look at what I'm building now. And there's a contact page on there. So if people want to reach out to me, they can get an email to me through that website. And then if it's a good fit for what I'm trying to do for people, um, I'll generally always try to respond to everybody and provide a resource or a respectful response either way. But um, if people want to partner with Stella Mental Health and do innovative biological treatments, I can help create partnerships. Um, there's all kinds of things we could do to move the needle, literally and figuratively. So um thank you for having me on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Awesome.

Final Links Hope And Listener Help

SPEAKER_03

Thank you so much for being here, guys. You know the spiel, it's the end of the show. Do me a favor, pose the episode, go to episode description, I'll wait. Right, you're there. Look at the uh look at all those links, click them, send a friend request, connect with Doc Springer, get her new book, and please do me a favor. Don't lose hope. Stay in the fight. Listen to everything that we talked about in this episode and really internalize it. Know that you're not alone. There are thousands of nonprofits out there that are willing to help you. And if you just need somebody to help walk alongside you, hit me up, psychhoppodcast at gmail.com. I will do my best to point you in the right direction, or just be somebody you can listen to. I've done it thousands and thousands of times, and I'm never gonna say no. I am a human being, and I like to get some sleep at some point. So please be mindful of that. But if you need a resource, I got tons of them, dog. I'm here for you. You're not alone, so stay in the fight with me. Again, Doc, thank you for being here. And to everybody listening, please take care of yourself and each other, and we'll see you all next time. Till then, take care.

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Deny Caballero

Host