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Blast Buddy: Fighting the Hidden Damage of War
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In this episode of Security Halt!, Navy clearance diver Daniel Pace shares his journey from a turbulent upbringing to developing Blast Buddy, a revolutionary tool tracking blast exposure in real time. He opens up about the overlooked mental health effects of blast exposure, why smarter training and data are essential, and how shifting military culture can save lives. This conversation dives deep into the science, innovation, and mindset behind protecting those who serve.
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Man, uh, you're doing great things for um uh not not only uh Australian service members, but for American service members, man. So Daniel, it's an honor uh to have you here today, brother. Thank you for being here.
SPEAKER_00:Well thanks, Danny, and and likewise it's an honor to be invited on on your podcast. I've listened to to many of your shows, and I think um the message you're getting out there is really important and uh not just for again, like you said, the US community, but all over the world. And uh we need our guys here to start listening and and and understanding that um you know blast waves they do cause long-term damage, and um, it's something that can be uh avoided, it can be mitigated, and and it can and I believe it can be done without compromise to capability. So yeah. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:That's the key part right there uh that we need to understand. We're not trying, we're not trying to dial it back and not make you um, you know, guys are still out there at the tip of the spear, the the combat infantrymen, the mortarmen. We're not trying to dial back your lethality. We're trying to enhance you and do it so you can stay in the job longer. That's the key thing. We're gonna need you guys. We're gonna need everybody that's out there doing those jobs. But just like I said um as we were starting off, uh we need to figure out ways we can be proactive, not reactive. And uh, I'm excited to have you on here to talk about Blast Buddy, man. This is something cool. Uh, everybody loves tech, everybody loves new and improved uh technology, but this is something that I could have benefited and my friends could have benefited from the beginning of GWAT. But before we dive into this tech, brother, uh, I got to dive into your story, man. Like, tell us how did Daniel find himself in this space?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's it's actually I'll go back to um right back at the very beginning. Um I actually grew up in in Western Sydney in Australia, which is a lower socioeconomic area. Um, you know, mum was quite young when she had me, she was 16, and my father was a heroin addict. And so I grew up in in quite rough circumstances. And um I just knew that, you know, for me, uh I guess I could have gone down two paths, either, you know, joining a gang and being a criminal or or or or do something else. And and I I just wanted to be as far away from from that sort of negative lifestyle as possible. And I actually uh ended up living with my uh grandparents um who you know raised me until I was 17. And uh that was tough. They were uh Italian immigrants and uh at the age of 17 felt um I felt like I was a burden on the family and I I wasn't their responsibility. So I made the best decision of my life and ran away and joined the Navy when I was 17. Hell yeah. Yeah, and you know what, it was um I wasn't alone. A lot of the friends I'd met with had come from some sort of um uh you know different backgrounds. And and the thing I love about the military is it doesn't discriminate. You can have uh you can come from a wealthy background, you can come from a poor background, but like are you are you good enough to do the job? Do you have the right attitude? It doesn't care where you came from, it cares about who you are and what you're made of. And um, you know, I made some of the best friends uh in my life. I met my business partner in the military. Um, and you know, it really shaped who I was as a person. And for me, it was almost like the you know, the father I never had. And um, yeah, and and so joining the the the military at 17, I ended up um I didn't know what I wanted to do, but uh I ended up joining and becoming an electronics technician, which is effectively a trade uh in the Australian military. And I was working with heavy weapon systems, so 30 mil cannons and uh different weapon systems uh doing the maintenance and and firing of those systems. And again, you know, was exposed to blast in those roles um probably less frequently than some of the special operations guys and clearance divers, but um, you know, it was it was it was a good it was a good role. But um on the ship that I was on, I was actually working with uh Australian Navy clearance divers, which are akin to US Navy SEALs, and um, you know, where the role of a clearance diver, I guess it's a it's a jack of all trades, master of none. So we do a bit of deep sea diving, a bit of EOD, uh, some reconnaissance, and then you can also go into a counter-terrorism unit. And uh I was about 21 or 22 years old and applied to become a Navy clearance diver and and was successful and ended up joining the Navy Clearance Divers group and again exposed to a lot more blast, demolitions, and and EOD and um and then within the group of clearance divers, we're a small group, about 200, a small subset, about a platoonsworth, uh, go on to work with the uh Australian Special Forces as um as counterterrorism operators. And I joined that unit, and it was it was really in that unit where I saw the most damage being done for our clearance divers, our special operators and and heavy weapons firers. Um and yeah, uh, you know, had worked as a breacher for for a few years. You know, overall I spent um 13 years full-time in the Australian Defense Force across these these various roles. Um, but it would have been around 2017, started to, I guess, connect some dots about changes in behavior that I was seeing with close friends of mine who were falling off the rails. Um for me, the math wasn't adding up. You know, all my mates were getting diagnosed with PTSD. Not all of them had deployed. Not all of them had seen anything particularly traumatic, even if they had deployed. Uh, but all of us were exposed to blast. And at the time, the Australian Defense Force was uh, you know, we were wearing blast gauges, we were sort of loosely aware of what was going on. But uh, to be honest, and you know, there was a culture of um, you know, wearing these blast gauges, we're getting these high readings. The idea was let's put them in a box because I don't want to be pulled out of the next deployment. And um and uh and so that's that's sort of what we did. We we we trained really hard and um you know, we're exposed to a lot of blast. And and sadly, uh around the time that I that I left the military with my business partner, we had um three members of my community uh take their lives within an 18-month period. Um I I lost another friend just recently, I was at a funeral, just you know, less than two months ago, for a really great clearance diver and a mentor of mine, again, um had been exposed to blasts and also played competitive um football. So I have no doubt that there was underlying brain issues um involved with him taking his life and and it and it really really had a big impact on me and just crushed my my my soul, my spirit just to be at these funerals and see um you know these guys' children uh and and their spouses, their wives crying over their their you know, dead husband and dead father's coffins. Um I knew something had to be done. And I guess as as circumstance had it, uh you know, my my business partner and I, you can tell I I'm young, uh young yes, I'm 37, but you know, we grew up with computers and uh and I think we were the first generation of of guys that were coming through uh that had grown up with technology and weren't afraid to use the technology.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um and so you know, as they say, if you you join the military and you ask too many questions, you go to special forces, and if you ask too many questions, you get out and start a business. So that's the that's the path the the the path that we followed. And I just really uh my business partner and I became uh uh I guess for lack of a better word, obsessed with how we could solve this issue. I think for me, taking that step back and going, okay, you know, that there's all these dis disconnected bits of technology. You know, we can measure blast waves, uh, there's new technology coming out, machine learning algorithms, we can test the cognitive performance. There's research out there that's saying that enough blast exposure is causing neural inflammation, it's causing long-term brain damage. I'm like, hey, you know, we just need something to pull all this together. And and that was um uh in 2018, my business partner and I applied for funding to the Australian Defense Force to to build uh some technology that would use machine learning and and leverage these sensors and cognitive data. And um, you you we put this application for funding in and uh we're sort of told, hey, you know, what's your business? And we're like, oh, we we don't have a business. Like, well, you can't yeah, you can't get funding unless you're a business. You know, perhaps you should you should leave the military and and um you know we'll we'll give you some funding to develop this innovation. And and uh, you know, as as Murphy's law has it, we we left the military, we applied for funding and didn't get the funding. After after joining the military at 17 and and uh full of enthusiasm, left you know in my 30s and um had no job, had no funding, and uh, but was really passionate about solving this issue. And um, but again, I think the the military trained us too well. We didn't quit and we re-evaluated where we went wrong on the application, reapplied for funding, and and was successful the second time around. And and we received our first injection of funding to build uh effectively Blast Buddy along with a few other uh solutions. And um that's where we got started. And and and so I guess sort of getting into it, what what is Blast Buddy? Yeah, it's it's a um it's a software application that helps uh military commanders and planners um plan deliberate exposures to blast, track and monitor the cognitive performance, and then make recommendations. Um you know, to put it really simply, you know, guys can get on a tablet like this. Let me just bring up a glass buddy, get on a tablet like this, they can plan their next serial. So if they're going to be firing a heavy weapon, they can pick the weapon system, the ammunition nature, who's firing in the weapon, the position they're in. So three or four variables we'll put into the system. Uh the system will then predict what we think they're going to be exposed to. They can then conduct the activity wearing a blast sensor. We'll then get a real reader what they're exposed to. Uh, and then with regular cognitive testing, we can track their performance changes over time. Um, we're also we're also integrated with some really exciting uh and new novel biomarkers that can measure inflammation on the brain. But again, I I think we've got to be completely honest here. The the situation that we're in at the moment is, you know, we can measure the blast wave, we can understand the context, we can measure the cognitive performance, we can measure a variety of biomarkers, but right now we don't know what the safe limit is. Uh there's talk of four PSI peak over pressure, there's 31.7 milliseconds impulse. Um, look, they're all a great start, but I think like any good toxicology, um, you know, if you were to go and drink alcohol, it's not about how many beers you could drink, it's about your blood alcohol concentration. And so I really do think we need a safe limit on the cognitive or the biomarker side. We're not there yet. We we need research. And um as you know, you you've probably spoken with a few other Australians and and Paul Scanlon. We are pushing this globally. Um, we are pushing this around the world to raise awareness and and really try and get everybody to work together, um, including people that I think, or organizations that would consider themselves competitors. I want to see them work together.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, absolutely, man. That's that's the one thing that's so infuriating is the competition aspect. Everybody wants to be the first in market. Everybody wants to be the one that delivers. The reality is the more we wait, the more we hold secrets and not collaborate, lives are on the line. Lines are on the friggin' line. Stop this idea of competition and hiding secrets and waiting to see who's gonna move. Like, dude, everybody needs to be on board. One team, one fight. And one thing that I love about individuals like yourself, Paul Scanlon, you guys are moving mountains. You guys are actively championing and I mean, screaming on LinkedIn, everywhere you can, anyone that you can reach out to through the divide, through the void, and get on a platform to share. I think Paul was flying around the world for a year non-stop.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, he's an energizer battery, he he just does not stop.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But when you when you dive into this, when you when you start studying this and figuring out the players, you quickly realize that there are people that literally want to save lives, and there are others that just want to capitalize and wait to see if they can make money. And that's a thing that's infuriating. I look back at my younger self, a fresh green beret on a team. You couldn't stop me from doing my job. As an AT Bravo, a weapons guy, if I had to run a motor range, I didn't care about exposure because I didn't know about exposure. That's the other side of this. How do we educate? How do we empower the guys that are out there doing the jobs and gals and let them know like, hey, it's in your manuals. Like, read, be in charge, understand that this, this, your gut, everything, everything's tied together, and these this blast exposure is something that will impact you long after your career.
SPEAKER_00:I 100%. And I think sometimes, you know, these issues don't manifest for many years. You might discharge feeling okay. I left the military five years ago, and I find I'm you know feeling some some some little impacts now and the headaches and the forgetfulness. It it didn't happen straight away, and and this is a story with with a lot of people. And I think um, you know, you you're definitely right about the messaging and raising awareness. And so we've really uh, you know, as an organization, um, not that I don't care whether people use our software or not, but I care about whether people are educated and doing the right thing. And, you know, even now, I'd love to share a few things with you that um organizations and planners can do right now for zero cost, that is 100% going to have an impact on saving people's brains. And, you know, and and I think the messaging it's also not all doom and gloom.
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SPEAKER_00:Um, this is one of the issues I think that we've had with um some of the larger organizations. When you're going there and telling them that they've got a really scary problem and a solution, they just hear problem, it's it's it's risk, it's it's you know, we're liable. Um they don't want to hear that. And and so um, you know, over the years and learning to talk about this, this is how we present blast exposure. Um, you know, if blast exposure, you know, it's like going in the sun, right? Not everybody who goes in the sun gets burned, not everybody who goes in the sun gets cancer, right? But if you are susceptible to skin cancer and you go into the sun for excessive periods without protection, you are going to, you know, drastically increase your risk of of getting some form of long-term damage, right? Um but there are things out there. You can work in the shade, you can use sunscreen, um, you don't have to go out five days in the row and and and suntan, right? Same as going to the gym. You would not train heavy legs five days in a row. But yet that's what we see the military do. I I remember at our training blocks, we would do a week of diving, a week of parachuting, and then a week of explosive breaching. Yes. I'll tell you what, what you can do as a planner, you could book a range every Monday and breach once a week. And that rest period between um breaching and not doing it on back-to-back days, you are going to save people's brains and have zero impact on capability because in a month's time, you're still getting your four to five days of training. And that's the messaging. That's the message you're gonna do.
SPEAKER_01:I'm so glad you brought that up. I am so glad you brought that up. It's train smarter. The concept's out there. We already understand how to better manage people and training schedules, but that that messaging isn't there. It's not tweaked. It's like you have control over this, and it's gonna be more beneficial, and it actually enhances training when you're able to better manage it. That's that's the one thing that nobody's talking about. And you're right, it's a scary problem set. There are people advocating and showing the worst situations, the worst problem sets, issues that are scary. It's your brain. You only have one, you can't swap it out. But the reality is if we get officers, senior NCOs to understand that they can impact this literally by writing out a better training schedule. We hit the range on this day, give our guys enough of a respirator and learn the indicators that there's something wrong. That's the other thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, oh, certainly. Anyone who's done breaching or fight a heavy weapon, at the end of the week, when you get headaches and you think, oh man, my helmet's really heavy, it must be the helmet. It's not the helmet, it's not the helmet. Yes. Yeah. So yeah, and and but again, I think, you know, from experience and and a lot of guys probably feel the same. Firing weapons for a day, you know, you feel it, but it's it's the back-to-back cumulative load. And then week after week, year after year, it it adds up. And um, you know, I just think we've got to do better to protect our brothers. It's it's something that um you know um we're all extremely passionate about, and I think it's a conversation that needs to be had. And you I especially here in Australia, so we we just last month we had um nine Australian law enforcement agencies use blast buddy. And wow, I think and and there were two things that I was really impressed with from those organizations. Um, first of all, you know, I I I left the military in 2019. And at the time, you think, hey, you're at the tip of the spear and and we do things the best way. They are so much better now than what we were five years ago. I compare it to um, you know, in the 50s and 60s, you'd pull up to a service station and somebody would put fuel in the car for you, compare that to an F-1 pit stop. These guys, these operators were slick, they were fast, they were incredible and super knowledgeable, right? Um, and so and and even some of the tactics had changed. I'm not gonna get into the tactics, but the way that they were um, you know, placing the charge and the cover man and the positioning uh and the speed at which they could could breach um was just absolutely incredible. But also this understanding of, hey, it's training, let's go fast, pause, step back, breach, reset, and then go, still getting the same training value. Um, you don't need to be right on top uh on the front of the blast wave. Yeah. Um because I I I know that we we had a culture when I was serving, and I'm not saying it's a bad culture, but was this really tactical aggressiveness. The safe if the safe distance for a breach was four and a half meters, you put the charge on the door, you take two steps back and bang, and your bell's getting rung, and you're running in there gung-ho. It's um Riding the breach, yeah, riding it in. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so it's everybody that I know that served in in special operations has a story of you know using way too much demo and having that concussive experience. Um and we tend to rationalize it while it was in combat. Like when you eat eat a couple blocks of C4 to get out of a compound, that's you'll you won't you if you can remember most of it, you're lucky. Um but then lessons learned. You have to understand, like you have to be aware of the effects that you're having in that in that period in time, be like, wow, maybe this is in a positive effect. Maybe when I go back and train up, I'll remember this. But we those lessons quickly thrown right out, and we go right back to doing the same thing we've always done. Just pushing that envelope.
SPEAKER_00:Old habits die hard, and I think it's it's um it's it's it's really hard to change a culture in any organization. But look, I think we're getting there slowly, and and you know, again, we we all joined the military willing to fight and and and die for our country, but you don't need to unnecessarily damage yourself during training. Um and and especially uh I think um you know that the numbers for suicide in in defense are just startling. You know, we we lost a uh significantly larger number of people to suicide in the Australian Defense Force than we did during the 20-year war on terror. Um that's that should not happen. Every single one of those deaths are preventable. Um that's somebody's son or somebody's daughter, somebody's husband and wife. Um and when you know these people personally, it it gives you a drive to not stop. And um, you know, as as far as I'm concerned, if if if the best thing we can do is raise awareness and change the behaviors, that that that's good enough. Even better if if we can really work at the tip of the spear and and then use technology to make sure that um we're not overexposing people. Um that that's that's the key. And and I think one of the things that's been missing, and and I've listened to a few of your podcasts, but that you know, this disconnect between the academic researchers and the operators. Um and if you give the the the researchers um uh freedom to develop a solution, they'll come up with a giant blast bubble that you sit under, you'll breach the door, and then all of a sudden, hey, we're stuck inside the bubble, we we can't it it's just not tactically effective, right? Um and and so yeah, we when you're looking at at a solution, I think for you know the way my brain works, okay, it um it doesn't need to be perfect. Near enough can be good enough. It has to be something that doesn't put an imposition on the end user. And so um, you know, is this a tool that they can use? Does the tool add to their workload or or uh improve their workload? Does it does it give them less work to do? And so our philosophy the entire time is let's make something um uh you know, we've all got uh mates in the unit that that necessarily aren't the the most um technologically savvy. So if the lowest yeah if the lowest common denominator can can get on a device and go, one, two, three, oh, I probably shouldn't do the next serial, that's what we want. And um and you know, diving in a little bit deeper and and and I'm happy to sort of share how our technology works. Yeah, yeah, please do because it's because I think it's I think it's gonna drive competition and get more people um looking at this space. But one of the big issues that that we see at the moment, right? Uh there's all these sensor companies. And the sensor companies can measure the blast. And then there's been studies that will measure the blast on aggregate, and then they'll measure the the cognitive performance on aggregate. But it's really hard to do anything with that information because um what were they exposed to? Were they firing a heavy weapon? What weapon system, what ammunition, um, were they breaching, what was the size of the charge, how far away, like where's the context? Exactly. It's one thing to do dose response modeling, but if you can't even model um context to to the dose, right? Um you then can't make predictions. And and so what our software does, we will make a prediction. So if you've got A, B, and C, A is what are they what are they going to be exposed to? B is what what what is the exposure? And C is the cognitive performance. We'll say, hey, operator A is going to be exposed to X grams of explosive charge, that's tamped. They're standing at you know four and a half meters with no cover. We'll put that in our system. Our modeling predicts a certain blast exposure, but off that prediction, we predict the change in cognitive performance. So now before they conduct the activity, we we say conservatively, we think that this is going to exceed a change in cognitive performance, it's not acceptable. But you can still continue and do do the activity. You don't, you know. Um and then but when they do the activity, we'll then get a real read on what they're exposed to. We'll then recalculate the cognitive and the biomarker. And then if if that new prediction uh you know indicates that there could be some some changes that need further assessment, we'll triage them and send them for further medical treatment. And and it's that simple. Um sounds simple. We've got an incredible team of engineers and software developers that have developed these algorithms. Um, and you know, there's a lot of people think it's as easy as just putting in some data and putting it, throwing it into AI. Um it doesn't work that way. There's an incredible amount of engineering and mathematics to solve this problem. Um and so what we've really been an advocate for is um if you want to maximize performance, you need to measure every dose. But not every role, but not every role I I think requires a blast sensor. I think there are there are roles that routinely fire uh weapons, um, they don't do it frequently enough. And and if we can get a baseline or read on what they do, it could be um, you know, there's a threshold. If you're firing more than a certain amount in a certain period, you're required to wear a gauge. Yes. Um yeah, if you're an explosive breacher, I think it's mandatory. Um and I'll be the first to put my hand up and say that um modelling blast exposure in an urban environment for explosive breaching is incredibly difficult. And we see uh more often than we're comfortable with these anomalies that even the best software um you might predict a certain amount and it can exceed it. It's it's really um, you know, we saw some really crazy things on this recent pilot where we had one guy um compared to the rest of his team, his impulse was about four times higher for multiple serials. And unfortunately, um, you know, we we weren't able to be inside the the range where that was happening, so we couldn't observe and see what was going on. But um, but at least with Blast Buddy, they can see the instant feedback. Well, you know, we can immediately sink the sensors, see what they're exposed to, and they can go, hey, you know, uh you were doing something that was different to the rest of the team. Perhaps that's why, and they can change their behavior immediately. Interestingly, uh, even shotgun breaching we found um with you know, and and this is common knowledge now, but we saw it firsthand. Um, you know, with the shotgun breaching, shooting the snip off the door, we were consistently getting with um, I think it was a Genesis shotgun with a with a 12 gauge hat and round, right? We they were consistently getting around two PSI peak overpressure. As soon as they started shooting the top hinge, we're getting about five PSI peak over pressure. So for me, um, if there's an opportunity to to to shoot the snib and not the hinges, all operators should just know that and have that in the back of their mind that hey, the the the top the top hinge is not the first thing I'm attacking. Yeah. Right? Yep. So I think that operators are smart and when they get in that instant feedback, they're gonna they're gonna adjust. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I I want to ask, I wonder for for the leadership, if um if the app has the ability to create profiles for individual teammates. Because that to me would be amazing if I knew for a fact, because you know us, like we, hey, that's my breacher, that's my primary breacher. He's gonna be going to the breaching course. If I could have real-time access to data that shows me that my two breachers on the team are red. They are they're they've been exposed the last two months, like I need to take care of my dudes, that would be that type of feedback with like on the spot measurements would be insanely valuable.
SPEAKER_00:That's exactly what it does with and without a sensor. So, you know, if we put in the context of, hey, this is what he's going to be exposed to, it'll give a red, uh, a red, yellow, green indication of what they have been exposed to, but also a warning of what they will be exposed to. And then again, with the sensors, we we find that um you can really push that capability because in lieu of a sensor, we have to assume worst case scenario. With a sensor, uh, often we can find, hey, it it's not worst-case scenario every time, so we can keep pushing. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Sold. Sold.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And again, look, we've got we've got really, really good partners we work with, and and this isn't just um, you know, our blast bloody platform. We're designed to be agnostic. We we can integrate with any sensor, uh, any cognitive platform. But uh as of right now, We integrate with Dana Brain Vital. So they are an FDA-cleared cognitive assessment test. Having used Dana as well as a number of other cognitive tests, I'm not going to mention the other test names. But it's a three-minute test that is sensitive to blast. It is the most validated test that has been used in all the blast studies. So a three-minute test, you know, at the start of the breaching day and then at the end of the breaching week or at the end of the day, we can track their performance. But the beauty is, you know, with technology now, once we get several cognitive tests under the belt and several breaches under the belt, we can quickly map how sensitive that individual is to blast.
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SPEAKER_00:And so this really becomes an individualized solution that we know that, hey, um, you know, John might be more sensitive to blast exposure than than than Jeff. And um and then we can really start to say, hey, this guy probably should be the breacher. Or um we can adjust the tactics accordingly. We know that, you know, you know, after a breach, maybe you don't want the breacher being the point man um you know, going through on an assault. And maybe that becomes the new tactic. And so every time there's a breach, he goes in and breaches, but he's at the back of the stack. He's still functional, but he's not operating at his peak because he's been breaching.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And that is such a valuable insight that I mean, it's a no-brainer if we can get this in the hands of every soft unit and every combat arms unit that is working with anything that has a high enough blast exposure, like we need this. Like, this is a no-brainer, man. Um, you've already you've already tested this out. How has it worked with, I mean, you've used it with New Zealand. How has it been received? That's the other thing. Like, how are the guys on the ground receiving it? Have you seen an open embrace or have you seen some hesitancy?
SPEAKER_00:No, look, there's there's seen so before they use the software, there's always hesitancy. Um they think it's going to create more work. But when they use the software, when they use the software, they actually realize, hey, um, uh, because you know, every country does things differently. But um, you know, in Australia, we have a a paper-based blast log, there's a range record, you write stuff on a whiteboard, you're you're putting that same bit of information across several different logs and paperwork. You can put it into the system once, put it on an overhead projector, and that's your mission brief, right? So when they realize that this is so much easier, um, it also provides a level of system assurance that these calculations don't get it wrong under fatigue. If you're under fatigue and you're looking at a blast table or working out your safe stacking distance, people make mistakes, right? Um, but the look, the overall feedback was that it's really easy to use. It actually reduces my workload as a supervisor because as a super supervisor, I can I can now put in the metrics of, you know, I know that I'm breaching a double brick wall. I know what charge I need to penetrate that target. Um, it'll recommend the safe stacking distance. You know, and and the beauty of what our system that we do have a fairly open system where um organizations can actually set their own safety thresholds and they can input their own formulas for the safe stacking distances because every country does things slightly differently. Now we found um the stacking distance for the law enforcement was different to what the military was using. Um and so we don't want to tell people what is safe, so to speak, um, because it, you know, every organization has different risk thresholds, right? Yeah. Um, but look, the feedback's been uh really good and and so much so that out of the the nine agencies, we've had more than half reach out to continue using Blast Buddy after the pilot. So um, you know, we're we're liaising with them at the moment, and um I think they see it as a force multiplier. It makes their job easier, it it tracks and monitors. They're getting real-time feedback that they can adjust tactics during training and in operations. So um, you know, and at the end of the day, I think I don't think a solution like this is possible unless it's been designed, you know, by operators. Like my business partner and I, we both serve, we we've both been exposed to to blast. I've got um I've got the strangest company, by the way. My company, I have the nerdiest nerds that play World of Warcraft and Dungeons and Dragons, and then these veterans who you know do mixed martial arts at Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and absolute killers, and then watching them interact, it's it's um, you know, just from a people watching perspective is very entertaining. But it works, it works, it does yeah. Um we've got some yeah, smart engineers that uh you know, and veterans um that aren't afraid to hate to say to the engineers they don't want they don't care if they hurt their feelings, they're like, hey, this this sucks, this just doesn't work. Go go and fix it. You know, this is horrible, this is dog shit.
SPEAKER_01:You need that. That's that's the the only way we're gonna develop something that works is by having the real feedback from people that are in the the the careers. Um it doesn't work. I've seen I remember seeing sensors, but that was it, just a sensor. You didn't have anything that actually gave you the data. Then he you didn't have anything that gave you feedback. There's always somebody um giving out a sensor, telling you to wear it, and then nothing came of it. Nothing. No information, no sharing of what it was for, and then ultimately you didn't find out what it was or what was going on. It was just to collect data, just to collect data, do further research, but not to empower you to let you know, hey, we're measuring this. Here's how you can get some feedback on it. Nothing. That was the early parts of the GWAT. And this is the first time I've heard of anybody that's giving the operator, giving the guy on the line a sensor with the feedback, with the information they need. It's one thing to wear it and gather the metrics, but what are you gonna do with that? Empower them. Be willing to say, here's a tablet, here's how you get the feedbacks, you can do better risk assessments, you can do better planning, and you can keep your guys on the job longer. It's not about making you less lethal, it's about making you more lethal. Nothing's better than keeping the guy that's been doing this job for you know 15 years all the way through to his full military career, to that full 20 years, so he can continue impacting and leading the next generation of war fighters. That's a no-brainer to me, but what I'm seeing currently is like we need this on the line like yesterday. Where are you guys at in fielding it and getting it accepted outside of Australia?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so uh I was recently uh in the US the past two weeks, and um I met with several um U USDOW stakeholders uh from Burko, from the University of Uniformed Services. We met with the the world's leading researchers. So that was um Dr. Michael Roy, uh you know, Dr. Walter Carr and Dr. David Cazer. We demonstrated blast buddy to them. We demonstrated blast buddy to the blast injury research and coordination office. Um actually met with James Engel. I think you might know James. Um he's an incredible uh human being and really pushing um everything in this space. And and and we we're we're working closely with James and we'll continue to do so. Um but where we're at at the moment, um we uh the University of Uniforms uh services has has uh we're in the process of getting a cooperative research and development agreement. Wow. Uh Dr. Michael Roy has given us uh this incredible letter of support um which we have attached to applications um for USDOW funding. And that so one of the issues they've had with the previous BLAST studies is they'll put blast the blast sensors on 100 or 500 people. They'll then get them to conduct cognitive assessment tests, they'll analyze the data on aggregate, so on averages across both, and then they come up with these recommendations like the 31.7 psi milliseconds. What Blast Buddy does, which they haven't been able to solve, and it's been very difficult for the researchers, is we can now give data to researchers that is so highly synchronized that uh, you know, Denny, you know, he he um conducted explosive breach. He was at four and a half meters with no cover, with 200 grams of NEQ, and the charge was tamped. This is what he was actually exposed to by wearing the blast sensor. And here are his changes in cognitive performance, all time-stamped, all synchronized. That level of data synchronicity just has not been done before and hasn't been possible. And and so what we've really um, you know, our communication to the US Department of War is that that, you know, we think enough is enough, right? We know there's an issue there. There's enough research that you can connect the dots and say that blast exposure, uh, you know, repeated over long periods of time is causing damage. It's it's it's not disputable anymore, right? Um and you know, what can we do? Right now we can measure blast, we can put in interim safety guidance, we can use tools like blast buddy to say, hey, your next exposure is going to exceed uh a daily impulse. Your next exposure is going to exceed uh peak overpressure. But again, letting the system have the supervisor or the commander make the decision that, hey, um, you know, we're still going to go ahead because it's an operation, or we're going to go ahead because we need to for whatever reason, but they're wearing the risk. And as long as they know that, and then they go, okay, maybe we sit him out for a few days, right? Um, but we've got this administrative tool that can be applied today to make real-time safety recommendations today. And then the byproduct of that is all this data that is getting captured will enable researchers to go and do their thing and work out the the um safe occupational exposure limit. And uh, you know, what I think um, you know, I actually had had dinner with um uh uh a very senior uh uh doctor from the US Army, and and he had made a suggestion, and and I think this is a probably uh it's a really good suggestion. And um there's there's really one of the issues that that uh we have at the moment is there is no definitive diagnostic for a blast-related TBI, right? There's no um blood test we can go and do right now, there's no image, there's no that there's nothing that we that is uh a accepted agreed upon diagnostic. But what we do know is that the changes in cognitive performance are real and we can measure that, right? And so um whilst we're still working out over the next three to five years what the best diagnostic is, uh we can use the the cognitive performance test as a proxy uh for a blast injury. So how would that work? If there is a a great change in cognitive performance uh over a short period of time, um and and these numbers can be set by the US Department of War, um, so you know, X percentage of change of cognitive performance, um, was the operator exposed to blast, yes or no? Was the operator exposed to anything else uh that could uh that the change in cognitive performance uh could be attributed to? Lack of sleep, alcohol, if the answer is no to any of those things, that then gets logged in the medical file as a as a blast injury. Um and I think that's a start that we can start doing that today, right? Um and then also the other issue is is um in lieu of that diagnostic, if we start capturing data today with all the relevant context, you know, what they were doing, what they're exposed to, the change in cognitive performance, in the future, when we do find out what the diagnostic is and the safe threshold is, we can go back to that data that we're capturing and for every single person go, hey, this guy actually has exceeded what we think is safe.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that right there, that is something that is nobody understands how important that is till you leave the service. Uh for us, when you start getting out of the military, you have all these medical appointments because they're they're trying to validate and ensure that everything that you're claiming you have some sort of record for every injury, every combat issue that you had. And for every single veteran or service member that's on their way out of service that has had blast exposure, TBIs, by and large, they don't have anything documented in their service record, in their medical service record. There's nothing linking that blast exposure, getting your bell rung, getting riding the charge, all those things that nobody documents. Well, now this could potentially help close that so that when you sit in front of that provider, they look at your record and they say, Holy shit, you were on a special forces ODA, you were a Ranger Regiment infantry soldier, you were a mortarman, all this exposure, okay, yeah, we got to take this into account because just like you shared earlier, the number one thing they want to diagnose us with is PTSD because of the overlapping co-occurring symptomology. It's the number one thing they want to go off because if they have to admit that by and large, the BASP, and we already know it, the signature injury of uh GWA is TBI. But if they have to pay for TBI for every single combat veteran, combat armed service member, every mortarman, every artilleryman would be bankrupt. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and it's it's it's just, you know, the the whole PTSD and the correlation, there are so many studies now that show the overlapping symptoms with traumatic brain injury um and PTSD and anxiety. And I think this is one of the probably um it contributes to suicide more than anything else, is the incorrect treatment. Yes. I've had so many friends that um, you know, they they they've been diagnosed with PTSD, they're speaking to a psychologist, they are not getting better. It makes their mental health even worse. Um and and and so, you know, I think it's sort of really simple. If you if you look at there there are um to me, I look at sort of three things that are the main contributors to to traumatic brain injury and and neural inflammation. So you've got um uh head trauma, drugs and alcohol, and blast exposure. They're they're the three main culprits. They cause a physical injury, you then have traumatic events um, you know, that that um and and chronic stress that cause this emotional injury. But what happens is um if you have a a physical injury that's manifesting emotional symptoms, a lot of the guys they resort back to drugs and alcohol to deal with the the pain. That increases the neural inflammation, which amplifies the brain injury, which amplifies the emotional injury, and it's this vicious circle. Um, they're going to get treatment. The treatment isn't working. You can't talk your way through a broken arm. You need to see a physio.
SPEAKER_01:This episode is also brought to you by Precision Wellness Group. Getting your hormones optimized shouldn't be a difficult task. And Dr. Taylor Bosley has changed the game. Head on over to Precision Wellness Group.com, enroll, and become a patient today. Yeah. Exactly, exactly. The neuroinflammation is something that nobody was talking about. Nobody was addressing this. And I've I went to two treatment centers. I had to go to a primary one, but again, all they're doing there is mental health. All they're addressing is mental health until you go to a treatment center that's specific for brain injury. And again, nobody's talking about neuroinflammation until I found Dr. Mark Gordon. I was the only person. He I mean, and shameless plug right here, right here. Link for it will be in the description. When every other doctor, every other doctor is pointing towards something else, that was the only man, and still very, very few other doctors are talking about this, but the impact he's having about addressing neural inflammation first, specifically within the operator community, it's changing lives, it's saving lives. And it's it's a shame that more people aren't spun up on this and aren't talking about it because you're right. Like when somebody is constantly being told that, hey, I just need you to reframe this thinking, I just need you to think about it this way. I need you to talk about the, you know, talk about de-escalating and all these psychological terms and all this stuff to get you to address PTSD, but in reality, your brain's on fire.
SPEAKER_00:You know, exactly. And and again, the treatment could look very different. You know, creatine, fish oil, turmeric, stop the alcohol, get good sleep, trans uh magnetic um, you know, cranial stimulation. Yeah. There's all these things. And um, but I think that, you know, I I guess looking at the the blast buddy solution, during the police pilot, we actually had uh about half the operators conduct biomarker testing um using a novel biomarker that measures inflammation on the brain. And this biomarker was actually tested with uh US Navy SEALs uh in in 2017. And unfortunately the study didn't continue. But what the data was showing was that after just one blast exposure, we could we could sensitively measure the inflammation on the brain. But the good the good news was was that um we could see that that you know 90% of people would return to baseline after a three-week period, right? And so we do know that there is a recovery, but I guess what the hypothesis is, is that if you if the brain gets inflamed enough, it starts to run away and causes interface, astroglial scarring, it causes all these other medical issues. But the very first thing you can measure, that the most upstream effect is that inflammation. And I think that's key to really setting the safe biomarker limit. Um I'm you know, again, until it's like like all good science, you have a hypothesis, and until um, you know, we're gonna try and prove it wrong, and if we can't, then it works.
SPEAKER_01:And Daniel, I'm gonna imagine that you guys are still busy working on on this app. Um, what's version two gonna look like? What are some things that you're leaning into the future to try to enhance is the capability of your app?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so um what we're looking to do is actually expand this just beyond on uh blast. So we do have a suite of applications. We've got Dive Buddy and Jump Buddy that help make diving and jumping. I was gonna ask about that. Oh man. Yeah. And I've I've actually just linked in with Adam from Prevent Biometrics, and we know that the DOW is using the mouth guard sensors for the impact. So we're gonna take the same algorithms and um uh uh framework where we we look at uh guys doing parachute jumping, measure the impact of the opening, because the T11, when that opens, that's a shock. When you hit the ground, it's a shock. Um and let's correlate that to changes in cognitive performance. And if we could if we could start to um combine that all together, so now we have um head impacts as well as blast over pressure and the changes, I think we're gonna have a really powerful tool to save brains.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, absolutely. It makes sense. Um yeah, being able to measure all that within one suite, and now you got my my mind racing with ideas of being able to be in my workstation and click on on my team in my my Blast Buddy app and have everybody's profile show up and see where they're at from previous jumps, previous blasts, historics. Um that sort of control at the team level is needed to understand. It makes better leaders, it makes better better operators, uh, and it gives us uh ownership of our health. That's the one thing that no one's talking about. Give the operator ownership of this and let them know because once you can take ownership and you demystify it. When you say, hey, you've you've got brain injury, you got issues with your brain, you make somebody feel hopeless, like they can't overcome it. I know I certainly did. When I got that definitive diagnosis and looking at my cognitive decline, I thought I was gonna be, you know, dealing with this problem forever. I didn't think that there was gonna be a way back. But if somebody would have been there to show me on an app, like, hey, you've had a lot of exposure, we're gonna take some time off, you can monitor it, you can go do X, Y, and Z and take this nutritional supplement, and you know, within a couple of months, we'll be able to check back again. I would have felt way better about that. And that's where we need to be. We need to empower the individuals that are doing the job. Let them know that, hey, we want you to be lethal. We want you to be at the front line, be ready to do this job. We we know you worked hard to get here, but here's this app that's gonna help you better manage the blast, better manage your jumps, and then watch them be better advocates for themselves than each other. Like the it, it's we equate it as being professional athletes when it comes to our special operations soldiers. What do professional athletes all have? They have professional tools to do their job for recovery. This is no different. I think that we need to need to rally around this and be able to push for more ingenuity and yeah, give Daniel and his team a little bit more funding so they can deliver this.
SPEAKER_00:No, I appreciate it. And and and I agree a hundred percent. And I think if you look at the cost of of having to to you know support someone um after they're injured, it's far higher than the cost of being proactive, looking at the recovery um if they do get an injury. And so really it's just about, you know, do you want a really big cost later on? Are you gonna kick your can down the road or are you gonna deal with it with it now? And um but I think I I would like to say say one thing. In terms of bringing this uh you know solution together and and working, I I think we do need to see more collaboration between all the companies and and particularly the sensor companies, and I'm gonna call them out now. Please do. They know who they are. Yeah, yeah. They they know who they are. Look, you know, we we work with with B3, and they've been a great partner of ours. We're also happy to work with all the other sensor companies as well. Technology is technology. What I think uh what I think they should be doing, and and I'm gonna propose this here because I I do hope they listen, um, the next contract that any of you sensor companies bid for uh with Department of War or any other uh military, I would like to see a collaborative agreement between all the sensor companies where they all bid and they all offer to resell each other's sensors. There is not one sensor that is suitable for every single role. And so when an organization says we are blanket going with this one sensor, they're doing a disservice to their service people because not every sensor is suitable for every role. And also by not working together as a company, as an organization, you're not suiting your customer the best. And so, for example, let's just say uh if it was MedEng or B3 or AMAD, they win the prime on the contract. Everybody can still uh make money if they're selling the other company sensors. They just sell it to them at a wholesale price as any other reseller. If they all work together like that, we we would have all the right sensors in all the right places, um, and and everybody would be working together to solve this issue. And and I I can't see a reason not to. Um and I think I genuinely think by doing that um we'll solve the problem quicker. And if you're solving the problem quicker, um it's better for all, you know, obviously it's better for the veterans, but from the companies that these big companies that have shareholders and they're publicly listed and they've got to make a profit. Well, I think you're gonna achieve that far sooner by working together than trying to cut each other's legs out.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Well said, Daniel. Absolutely. Um it's about saving lives, it's about coming together. Because look, uh, as much as I wish that uh warfare would advance to the point where we wouldn't have to put men and women on the line, we're it's not here. We're not there. Um our warfighters are gonna continue to put themselves in dangerous situations, whether it's in combat or in training, and we should do absolutely everything we can to ensure that they're safe while they're training for their craft. And this is something that we need uh desperately, man. I I look back to my career and I wish I would have been able to utilize this, not just for myself, but for my men, for training with with the with these individuals that are so willing to run in and do absolutely everything that's necessary to accomplish the mission, whether it's for training or for war. And I wish we could have had this. Um and I know you feel the same way. Yeah. Um, we've lost both of us have lost friends after the war. And it's uh a lot of it has to do with brain. It has to do with the impact, it has to do with the blast exposure. And I can't thank you enough for being in this fight. As we're closing up, I I want to, you know, pivot to um the personal story. You know, you're somebody like myself that you've you've dealt with this. And in your journey, do you find some healing and do you find some comfort knowing that you're still in the fight and still of service for your family, for the brotherhood?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I look, I think that's what drives me. Um if if you go into anything like this expecting um, you know, if money's your motivator, you wouldn't do it. But my my business partner and I genuinely, and and I say this, um, my business partner and I, we used to be property investors owners. I have zero properties now. I've sold everything to fund this solution. I I've I've put everything on the line. Um, I've got an incredibly supportive wife who has seen our our family assets shrink because she's seen my friends hurt and and my you know, her friends lose their husbands, right? Um it it's it it it really does drive me to really push forward and keep going. Um you probably you know you may have noticed I've I've I've got a cross up there. Um I think my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ has really helped help me through this. Um, you know, it's um it saved me from from sort of being on the brink of collapse and and helped give me, I believe this is my mission from God. Um and I'm not going to stop. And and because it's so personal to me, and I think um, you know, I I've been in times to business and and people don't see this when when you run a starter. Um where I've been crying and and thinking, God, you know, why can't we get through? Please give me a sign. Like if this is not what I'm meant to do, shut this down and close every door. But if this is what I'm meant to do, just open one door and give me an ounce of hope. And you know what? We we we get the next pilot, we get the next round of funding. And and I think I think um that you know, this is sort of um it's it's my mission to complete and I'll and I'll see it through. And and seeing um just the changes with the new guys you know in their attitudes and behaviors towards blast. Um, you know, I I tell the story to to every, you know, all the new operators I meet. In my generation, um, you know, almost every single person from my former platoon um was medically discharged due to poor mental health, right? But not all of them had been deployed. Um, more than half had attempted suicide, and and we've had four complete suicide. That can be your unit if you don't make these changes. And and I don't want that for you. I don't want that for your children and your family. Um, and and we need to stick together. And I think conversations like this really start to bring it all together because it's not just, to me, it's not just blast-related TBI. It's many problems for many people. It's homelessness, it's divorce, um, it's it's it's drug addiction, it's it's it's alcoholism, um, it's all these things that can be solved by addressing the root cause. Um, you know, the numbers, the numbers are startling. Over 500,000 diagnosed TBIs um just in the US Department of War alone in the last 20 years. That that is huge. And and that's what's being diagnosed. What about the undiagnosed? Yeah, right. And and um I I'm convinced that the vast majority of of the mental health issues amongst our veterans are from uh blast exposure and and toxics. Uh that's um and and they they are very solvable problems. So I think we're gonna make a huge difference and we're gonna change the world. We really are.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. I I I truly believe that, brother. And I am so incredible, great, incredibly grateful that you were able to make time for this discussion today. Um, it is my absolute passion advocating for our service member and witness members active and our veterans. Um nobody deserves to be in this fight alone without hope. And even though this app isn't going to help me in the moment or help our veterans, it's helping our active service members. It's helping our guys and gals are still in the fight. And it gives us hope that we are moving towards the right direction. Um, and I just, gosh, man, I wish. That more people could realize just how much hope you're giving individuals with the work that you're doing, man. It's incredible. We need to rally around you. We need to support you. And like you were talking about earlier, collaborate. That's the most important thing. Collaborate in this endeavor. Be willing to reach across and say, fuck profits. Let's save lives. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree a hundred percent. Yeah. Just yeah, I cannot wait to see you when you get back to States. Because uh, if you're gonna be coming back and hitting any any lectures, hitting any presentations, you give me a heads up and I will I will move mountains to try to get there because um you're somebody that needs to be elevated. You and what your your partners are doing is really important. If we want to connect with you, if we want to learn more, where can we go?
SPEAKER_00:Uh the the best place would be LinkedIn. We we do have an Instagram, a Twitter, so uh Blast Buddy Um on LinkedIn search Blast Buddy, you'll find us and and also myself personally. I I put a lot of things out uh from my personal page, not just the company cap page, because I think for me it really is the personal story. Yes, the company, the product, the branding's one thing, but I I think um I I just don't think that's the the right message. It's it's it's really got to be, hey, you know, I've lived it, you know, I'm I'm developing a solution. I care. Um companies don't care. That's that's that's the reality that they can they care about profits, and and a big part of us is really um, you know, we've kept it small, we've bootstrapped. Um, but but yeah, just um LinkedIn's probably we're where all our posts are, we've got the website, um, but also on X and on Instagram.
SPEAKER_01:There you go, guys. Do me a favor, hit pause, you know the spiel. It's almost over, anyways. Go to the episode description, click those links, send Daniel friend request on LinkedIn, connect. Hey, if you got some money to invest, reach out. We're always looking. Always need to connect people with uh some philanthropic duties to fulfill. I got a guy right here for you. Daniel, thank you so much for being here. More importantly, thank you for being in a fight. Thank you for not giving up and for picking this up as your mission. Um, there's nobody better suited for this than you, and you are crushing it, man. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And to everybody listening, thank you for being here and stay in the fight and take care of each other. Until next time, take care. SecureDob Podcast is proudly sponsored by Titan's Arms. Head up to the episode description and check out Titan's Arms today.
