Security Halt!
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Security Halt!
Dr. James Engall on Blast Injuries, Brain Trauma & Training Safety
In this powerful episode of Security Halt!, Deny Caballero sits down with Dr. James Engall to discuss a critical but often-overlooked issue in military training—blast exposure and its long-term effects on brain health.
🔹 The Silent Impact of Blast Waves – How repeated exposure in military training and combat affects cognitive function, hearing loss, and long-term brain health.
🔹 The Science Behind Neuroplasticity & TBI – Why understanding brain adaptability is key to improving recovery strategies for military personnel and first responders.
🔹 Weapon Systems & Safety Innovations – The role of suppressors, blast mats, and mitigation strategies in reducing harmful exposure.
🔹 BAM Analytics & Operation Blue Shield – How advanced data tracking is revolutionizing training protocols for SWAT teams, military units, and law enforcement.
🔹 Advocating for Smarter Training – Why military leaders must rethink training methods to prioritize long-term health and operational readiness.
This episode is a must-listen for active-duty military, veterans, first responders, and anyone invested in brain health and safety advancements.
👉 Tune in now and help spread awareness! Subscribe, like, and share on Spotify, YouTube, and Apple Podcasts to support the mission of protecting those who serve.
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Chapters
00:00 Understanding the Impact of Blast Exposure
07:25 The Importance of Training in Blast Exposure
10:27 Physiology of Blast Waves and Their Effects
12:41 Weapon Systems and Their Impact on Exposure
19:30 Mitigation Strategies for Blast Exposure
25:45 The Birth of BAM Analytics
28:50 Operation Blue Shield: Supporting SWAT Teams
30:16 Understanding Blast Injuries and Training Smarter
32:37 Introducing the Blast Mat: A Visual Training Tool
37:43 The Importance of Brain Health and Recovery
39:41 Advocating for Smart Training Practices
44:51 Holistic Approaches to Blast Exposure and Health
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LinkedIn: James Engall
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Website: baam360.com
Produced by Security Halt Media
Security Odd Podcast. Let's go. The only podcast that's purpose-built from the ground up to support you Not just you, but the wider audience, everybody. Authentic, impactful and insightful conversations that serve a purpose to help you. And the quality has gone up. It's decent, it's hosted by me, Danny Caballero, Guys that were impacted by combat missing a leg, missing an arm and we're like okay, that's what it means, that's what it means to go to war. That's the reality. What nobody was talking about was repeated blast exposure. Nobody was talking about was repeated at blast exposure.
Speaker 1:Nobody was talking about that. Nobody was talking about. Like hey, 18 Charlies that go back to teach in the Q course and they're constantly breaching and they're constantly blowing shit up. And then you get guys that aren't talking about having tremors, aren't talking about cognitive decline, they aren't talking about these intimate things that only we're dealing with but aren't willing to share with the rest of the world.
Speaker 1:And then I found myself in this space and getting to meet individuals like Dr Anne McKee and bring them on to Broken Brains and individuals such as yourself, and I'm like we have to amplify this message, because if we don't talk about it, then guys on the team aren't going to hear about it, Guys in the actual platoons doing the training they're not going to hear about it. And it's up to us to be able to say like, hey, what's the exposure? How many should we be doing today? What's the minimum safe distance? What's a factor? Can we back it up a little bit? So, James, Dr Engel, today I'm excited to have you on and talk about what you're doing with BAM Analytics.
Speaker 2:Awesome, man. Well, I appreciate you having me on, Danny.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. It's innovators such as yourself that are out there doing this work, bringing new ideas into discussions and actively working to improve the quality of devices and new ideas to help us stem this epidemic that I'm seeing of repeated blast exposure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, I you know it's been a journey, I'll tell you that much. And you know, in addition to the work that we do with law enforcement, you know we're kind of circling back to kind of go back to the roots and help military as well, so excited about talking about different topics today. So whatever you want to talk about, man, let's do it.
Speaker 1:Let's start it off with you, man. How did you find yourself in this space? How did you, as a young man, say you know, I want to go study this stuff.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, actually it's all kind of happenstance in many ways. So, you know, when I was in graduate school, I was kind of working on different projects looking at the aging brain. So, wanting part of my part of my research when I was in graduate school uh, at least for my, toward my PhD, was looking at how the brain adapts. So this topic of neuroplasticity often comes up a lot, right, yeah, yeah. And so, uh, neuroplasticity itself is one of these. Uh, it's not inigma, because the brain does it all the time, but understanding how it works at the, you know, at least at the neuronal level. How do we change circuits, connections, weights of those circuits, and what do they respond to? And so what I was studying was hearing loss, age-related hearing loss, and looking at it from a peripheral phenomenon. So what happens in the inner ear? How does those changes in the inner ear track into the brainstem, into the brainstem, into the midbrain and midbrain into the auditory cortex? And you know, it was really interesting because all of this stuff is like relevant to the stuff that we do with blast.
Speaker 2:So, one of the things, after my, uh, my graduate work, I went on and did a postdoc at the university of Arizona, wanting to kind of understand how these changes in the periphery and how uh auditory system changes, uh, these, these neural weights, um, due to a slow, progressive change in hearing, and how that feeds forward into like cognition and uh, at the same time, you know it's, it's, it's an interesting question, right, because one of the things that we know that works for people, um, especially who are experiencing hearing loss, is to simply wear a hearing aid and that will help combat some of the problems that uh come down the line, especially with, like uh, dementia and things of that nature.
Speaker 2:So, um, I got out of academia for a bit, went into industry, did some work in hospitals. So, uh, there's a procedure, uh for implanting an electrode down into um kind of like a brainstem midbrain target to help fix Parkinson's disease and other motor disorders, and there's a company that was looking for a neurophysiologist that can interpret those types of signals while neurosurgeons drop those electrodes in. So I jumped into this field of clinical neurophysiology for a couple of years and I have to say, like you know, the stuff that a clinical neurophysiologist sees in the operating room and help participate like, really try to decrease complications with surgery, like they're like the unsung heroes in the OR in many ways right.
Speaker 1:That sounds incredibly complex. That doesn't seem like an easy thing. You know it's sticking electrodes in people.
Speaker 2:You know, just depending on what the procedure was, if it was a brain surgery, a tumor, an aneurysm clipping or something to deal with the spine, like putting in instrumentation to fix, like a herniated disc or scoliosis going, jumping out into the peripheral nervous system, removing tumors and you know, the whole goal of those of a clinical neurophysiologist is just to make sure that the you know, optimal outcomes for the patient. And but you know, one of the, after a couple of years of doing that, I was on a research project, kind of serving on this for this little stereotactic robotic arm, and it kind of pulled me back into research and I accidentally fell into this project working with the Navy SEALs and yeah, it was an amazing project. On this project, looking at low level repetitive blast, uh looking at you know essentially how, uh what, what people are exposed to during like a land warfare training self are like shoulder matter, rockets, right, and so it all kind of started there. So, coming back full circle, uh, this was back in uh 2017 and I worked with a really, you know, passionate group of people that were part of a DIVBIC turned into TBI-COE Traumatic Brain Injury, intrepid Center of Excellence, and you know these different projects just kind of started blossoming out of this research and uh, it was in collaboration with the Naval special warfare.
Speaker 2:My group out of uh was leading the project out in Bethesda, maryland, uh uses and you know some really great people working on those projects. Um, you know the it's. It's so interesting because in this field there's there's there's only a few groups at the time that were kind of working on blast and uh between um, uh at the time commander Josh Duckworth, who was leading the project with the on this on the Navy SEALs, and uh, some other collaborators who I've eventually worked with and now part of my board, uh, dr Gary Kamimori, uh from uh rare. I have to say that some of this, a lot of this research, it all kind of dovetails together and, you know, trying to help figure out ways to produce smarter training opportunities and to get in front of or left of what I've been calling left of the blast or left the boom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. That's a thing that, like I said earlier, like we don't, we tend to think that the exposure and the dangers are on the battlefield and we fail to comprehend the dangers of training. The amount of training that goes into preparing you before you even get out the door to go on mission is insane. And that's the real issue. That's a real problem. For a long time people were studying the effects in combat, doing RAND studies on selected group of individuals, whether it was artillerymen and different fobs. And, yes, that exposure is vital, important. That needs to be researched. We need to understand that training. Even our conventional army units you know the NCO that's running the grenade pit at Benning, the NCO that's running the demolitions training at various soft bases those exposures need to be understood and those individuals need to be brought and made aware of, like the dangers and how we can mitigate it. And that's a reality. We're just now starting to pick it up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, you're a hundred percent direct on that. When you think about all of the different, you know individuals in the chain who are getting exposed to blast. You know, and some of these seminal research papers that were put out by Rare saying, you know, suggesting like 70, 80% of your lifetime exposure being exposed to blasts is in training. Right, I'm working with law enforcement units. You know they're actually getting a lot more exposures. You know I I've currently estimated around 90% of their exposures are coming from training. But you know it makes sense. So when you think about, like, you know the things that they're doing, um versus like, uh, you know different MOSs across the military. They're they're they're going to have a different off tempo, different training cycle, things of that nature. So, um, but it kind of kind of puts things into perspective. Right, the operator you know their role, uh, rsos on the range, and you know every single person who's going to be out there supporting um, whatever that training evolution is going to be like.
Speaker 2:Everyone needs to be aware of what blast is, uh and ways to prevent it and mitigate it, and understand like, okay, well, I'm on the front nine of my career or I'm on the back nine of my career. These are my goals. I want to stay in for 20, for 30. This is my goal. Or, when I'm finished, I want to go off and be with my family and be a successful business person, like you know, doing whatever you want to do. But knowing how to get there, I think, is something that we have to start preaching and talking about optimizing performance, optimizing brain health to get to your goals.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's also important to understand the physiology. What happens? What are these blast waves do to the brain and the body? Cause everybody can think back to when they've done way too many mortar rounds and they feel tired and they feel lethargic, but they don't understand, like, how these waves are actually impacting the body.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know it's.
Speaker 2:It's so interesting cause you know part of you know I was, I was part of this uh uh program, uh called the Conquer Program, great program, and they have a bunch of operation managers who are the heart and soul of their operation and that is to understand and get in front of blast right.
Speaker 2:That we can think about when we think about, you know, blast itself is that you know different types of charges, different types of devices are all going to affect the body differently, right, and how they're going to interact with the operator and everyone else on the range. So you know, when we want to dig into, like, what blast is doing, you know we got to think about what blast is first right and where it's coming from. So you know one of the things that we do, we do a lot of weapon mapping, device mapping, to try to get like the raw signature from these different weapons and devices, like what type of pressure is coming from that right, and then understanding how it interacts with the environment and then it interacts with individuals within in that environment. So you know, let's dig into. You know different. I imagine you have different questions and we can steer this conversation any direction you like.
Speaker 1:Let's do it. Let's dive into the weapon systems. That's something that a lot of guys don't really focus on, because what specifically 50 Cal like? I will tell you that we don't look at that exposure as being relevant. We really don't really focus on. Because what specifically 50 cal like? I will tell you that we don't look at that exposure as being relevant. We really don't. Same with m4s and and higher caliber sniper systems like 338 don't look at it and address it. 762 don't look at it and address it as something that we need to be aware of and and uh, if we could dive into that, that'd be awesome. Sure, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:So when you think about, uh, let's just start off with small arms in, right, uh, you know, and move our way up to large caliber, uh, sniper rifles because those I love shooting those, those are fun, everybody does ah, you know. And and here's the thing, at some point it's like, okay, I need to set myself, I need to set a limit on how many rounds I want to send down range, right, just send it. Or, you know, maybe it's time to throw on some different types of devices, like you know, maybe I need to adjust my muzzle brake, maybe I need to throw on a suppressor, maybe I need to throw on a suppressor with recoil reduction, you know, and just keep adding up all these different things that I consider, you know, mitigation tools. So when you think about, like, the different types of pressures that come off of different weapon systems, here's the different, here's the things you need to think, keep in mind, right, and as you as an operator, you probably have these in your head already and you're like, okay, I'm going to be shooting like an M4 equivalent, but it's got a 10 inch barrel, 16 inch barrel, you know, that may be sending like a, you know, 50, 55 grain or 65 grain bullet down range, you know, and the amount of you know sound that's going to come out of that thing, um is also, there's also gonna be pressure, right, and where am I going to be shooting it If I'm? Am I just shooting in a lane, just you know qualifying, or am I going to be, you know, running and gunning, um, and clearing a room? Uh, so understanding what types of pressures come from your weapon system is really important.
Speaker 2:So, like you know, for instance, just based on, you know, standard ammo center length barrels, you know simple flash hider on like an M4, you know we won't. We can translate that, right, we can translate PSI to Pascal's, pascal's, the DB, and just you know, have a heyday, and I'm trying to understand, like, what these different things mean me. So, for sound wise, uh, you know this is about a hundred and I think 160, 163, 164 DB, that range, depending on, again, different factors, um, in the shooter position, right, so to the left, to the right of the muzzle, depending on what the scenario is. Um, you know, you might experience more than that based on the flow characteristics out of the barrel. Ok, so just to kind of level set everything when we think about different types of exposures.
Speaker 2:When I talk to my good briefs, to the law enforcement community, these different SWAC operators I always talk about and kind of bring things back to what they're used to hearing, so what they're experiencing, right. So a siren, right, when we think about a siren, how loud that is, that's about 120 dB SPL. We're kind of conversing at about 60, 63, 65 SPL dB SPL. Once you start getting to some of these higher sounds like gunshots from different types of small arms, you know essentially we're going above this 140 dB SPL threshold, which you know kind of goes into this like impulse noise characteristic, very short, brief sounds that are louder than 140 dB in less than one second.
Speaker 2:So one of the things that we can see is that, uh, for just a simple, like M4, when you know we're thinking about 160, 164 DB, you know between 0.4, 0.5, uh, psi. Now we start jumping up into different calibers. Right, what's your favorite? You know, favorite round that you shoot down range.
Speaker 1:Oh, for me personally, seven, six, two. You gotta go with the scar, gotta go with the scar heavy that's not heavy. Okay, gonna go yeah, heavy, or uh, mark 48. Uh, because nothing says. Fuck you like belt fed weapon systems oh man, yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 2:And so when you, when you, when you're experiencing that as a shooter, right, you know you probably, okay, I'm gonna go on range and I'm gonna be wearing my foamies my over the ear, you know, and just standard things to help protect your, your hearing, like you know, make sure you don't have any experience, any hearing loss, right.
Speaker 2:And so when we start thinking about, like, moving stuff from dv spl sound, right, moving it into this idea of going into pressure things that you can feel, right, that your body can experience right now, we like talking about that in the psi realm, right, because then it's like, oh, I can, I can feel that, um, so you know, on some of these really small, like low level blasts, very low level blasts, under 0.5 PSI, you know something you experienced from shooting like an M4. Um, and then, like, on the other end of the spectrum, right, you got shooting 50 Cal, you know, out of like a Mark 15, right, uh, bolt action, 50. Um, now, a lot of you know versus, like maybe like a M107 semi, right, uh, so those two weapon systems, right, I just jumped from M four to 50, you know sentence six two is like really down the way, right.
Speaker 2:Well, don't worry, we'll fill the gap, yeah, but I like to, you know, uh, goalpost this right. Uh, 50 Cal, you know you're going to experience anywhere between barrel and the type of ammo you're running. Uh, let's go with the hot round 750 AMAX. You know, uh, you could experience between four to five PSI in the shooter position depending on the length of the barrel and muzzle break, right. So, luckily, I've been, you know, going through and studying this.
Speaker 2:Uh, small arms, uh, large caliber, small arms. You know I've mapped a bunch of different rifle systems and one thing that we see is that definitely the length of that barrel matters, right. And so I've had the opportunity to shoot an Accuracy International with like a 16-inch barrel on that thing, ai ELR 50 with a 16-inch barrel. But I'll tell you that on the other end of that was a nice can, an exceptional can, and we'll talk a little bit about that in a second. But the pressure that was coming out of that experience in the shooter position is going to be a little bit more, uh, because of the, the shorter barrel. Um, so you know, you can kind of fill that in the blank. You know you can get anywhere between one to three PSI, depending on uh the, the, uh the rifle system that you're shooting in the shooter position. Again, um rail length and muzzle attachment is going to change.
Speaker 2:Uh mitigation, um mitigating uh small arms, uh large caliber rifles, uh hands down, first thing, just to go to just a suppressor yes, and there's so many different suppressors on the market, um, but in the 50 cal range, you know you're getting you know, from the barrett 50 cal suppressor to like a huxworks, to a thunder beastast, to some of these others, you're going to get, you know, sub one PSI, from 0.5 to one PSI, all the way down to, when I talk about PSI, down to 0.06 PSI.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's when you're speaking to the soft world too. That's something that you can easily mandate on the team level. Run suppressed, run suppressed. You have them be willing to use them. I remember there was there was such a hesitancy at the team levels, like we don't need to worry about suppressors. Like, use them a, you're all about looking cool, you're all about trying to be the coolest guys out there. Use your fucking suppressor, it's part of hollywood baby, everybody has them.
Speaker 1:But we didn't, none of us understood the benefit of it just for, like, going to the range doing normal, uh, everyday training. There is a benefit to it. There is an absolute benefit to it, and I know what you're saying. Well, wear and tear on it. Well, make the unit. Buy some more you. There's already a contract for them. There's already a contract for it. There's an end a contract for it. There's an end of life. It's easy to track. It takes a little bit of extra work to do your round counts, to make sure that you're keeping a good track and accurate track of when those baffles are shot through. But that's an easy thing you can implement right now, especially when you're running to shorter barrels, which is something that none of us were really paying attention to. You do it when you're in the house. Some teams.
Speaker 2:It's something that none of us were really paying attention to. You do it when you're in the house, some teams, but those are all things you can do for mitigation, yeah, yeah. So you know, right, there's. There's other things you can do for mitigation too. So just just run in suppressed. You know that's that's what we recommend. Uh, even on range or clearing houses, you know, but everyone has to pick their own can that they like, right, and there are good cans out there and there are exceptional cans out there. And you know, as long as you're not getting a bullet strike, as it's going and you know obliterating the system, you know you pick the ones that you want to run with.
Speaker 2:About two years ago, you know, when I started doing some weapon mapping on small arms, try to find different strategies to mitigate small arm fire and really tried to map it in a systemized way and talking to different units, one of the things that popped up in one of the concerns is like, obviously, gas, right, as you're so back gassing from those different systems and so you're just jumping on and doing some research online and like what types of weapon systems that are out there can systems. You know there's some new like technologies that are out there. Huxworks is one. They make a really sexy can that flow through technology pushing that gas forward. You know, I was able to map out some of their cans as well and I have to say they make a really sexy can that flow through technology pushing that gas forward.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, I I was able to map out some of their cans as well and I have to say they they make a good can like, uh, it does, it's as advertised. They also make a really good uh muzzle attachment called a blast deflector. So if you're, if you're in a situation where you can't run a can at least, and you still want to get that reclor reduction from a muzzle brake, put a blast deflector or linear compensator at the end to, you know, redirect some of the pressure board, so again. So one of the things about you know again, put these cans in operators hands and let's see what type of feedback you get Exactly. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean and so you know, even though that you know, even though I'm a fan of, like Huxworks, some of the comments and feedback that I've received in the last couple of weeks is that, as you're on the range, like on the line, it's great, like you know, all those gases are going up range, no problem.
Speaker 2:But what if you're starting to run and gun with them, gun with them, and so you know, uh, one of the concerns that I've that I've heard recently and I need to talk to Huxworks about this, see what they've um, what if they have any data on it is that all these gases are now going forward because of that flow through technology. But if you're running and gunning and you're running into it, is it a higher concentration of gas in that spot? And so, uh, I need to ask them about some of those questions. But they definitely solved the problem of backgassing. It's not a problem, obviously, with bolt action systems. So when we think about bolt action systems, backgassing isn't a problem. Last year, in 2024, I did a study with Thunderbeast and I have to say that their 50 cal can ooh, that thing is amazing.
Speaker 2:This thing is badass this thing is. I have to say that you know, when I met Ray Sanchez at an event that was put on by TacFlow Academy, mark Lane invited me out to do to run a little overpressure brief for in his class for when he runs it for large caliber weapons training, and Ray Sanchez was there from Thunderbeast and you know he was. We were just talking a little bit after the session and he's like come over here and shoot my 50 because this thing is going to knock your socks off. And he was like come over here and shoot my 50 because this thing is going to knock your socks off. And he was talking to me about it and he's like here, stand right here. And I was like no, I'm not going to stand right here, like you know, like literally a meter away from the muzzle, like in the break. And I was just in my head like I had this dissonance, like I just like no, whenever I'm someone shooting the 50, I stand behind at a certain certain distance. And so he's like no, stand right here. And and I have to say when I was just like wow, this is, this is so quiet and you know.
Speaker 2:So, after shooting it and running the test on it. Um, I have to say that thing that 50 Cal, you know you're experiencing four to five PSI in the shooter position. That can drops pressure down to about 0.06 PSI. So think of a 50 cal shooting like a 22. That's what it sounds like. And then how it handles, you know it's like it handles more like a 308 instead of a 50.
Speaker 1:So I have to say what's the life cycle of that thing.
Speaker 2:You know that's a great question I haven't asked Thunderbeast about, but I know they have a lifetime warranty on it. So if there's ever a problem you send it back and it's getting smart right. A lot of these, a lot of these suppressor manufacturers are running, are adding these lifetime warranties in their system, their cans, and so if there is any type of defect or you know, problem, um, you know they'll just fix them up for you. So, uh, yeah, so I, I, you know I have to say that, uh, some of these, the different types of exposure, at least to yourself, and then you know, as you're running and gunning, you know the rest of your team is important to think about too. So, yes, absolutely so, running suppress, running blast deflectors, especially when you're running and gunning um advisable, so let's switch gears.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about BAM analytics. How did that come into fruition? When did you start that?
Speaker 2:Oh man, so I had the crazy idea to start it during the pandemic.
Speaker 1:That is pretty crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, well, you know. So it all kind of started. I was working on this project kind of helping do some blast surveillance as a contractor to the DOD. The idea was, when this project was, you know, getting blast gauges, blast sensors out to the units right To see if feasibility and kind of show that it's scalable, and some of the problems, I said there's some programmatic problems that were occurring at the time and I decided that you know, I'm tired of these programmatic changes that are kind of interfering with progress, and so one of the ways that was suggested to me to try to bypass some of those was to start my own company. And now I, you know, five, four years later, almost five years later, last analytics and mitigation is you know kind of minutes.
Speaker 2:I think we're in our do or die year, to be honest with you, because you know it's like we think about companies, right, companies have, you know you get so much, you have so much startup funds, you have so much saving funds, you know, and you're you, you put all your money into it and then you're, you know you get progress, you get, you know you wait for units to get grants, um, and so you know, we originally started, uh, so that I could continue doing some of these weapon mapping um effort, but as a contractor again, uh, but during the pandemic everything just kind of got mixed and you know, mixed. But luckily, at the same time I have to say that I had a retired SWAT operator reach out to me and he's like, hey, man, I saw this video that the Navy put out that you're in, and he just came across LinkedIn and he said definitely something to look into. Swat operators are, you know, getting taking similar type of hits throughout their careers. And you know, he himself said he had CTE and you know, at the time it's like, hey, that's a good little lateral pivot to help a community that would probably not even think about this right now, probably until after the DOD finalizes their program. So we've been supporting SWAT units across the United States.
Speaker 2:We launched, we started this program called Operation Blue Shield and we raised some funds. We did a GoFundMe, we got a little bit of money from that and we actually launched Operation Blue Shield with LAPD, metro, deep Platoon, their SWAT team, and you know it's. We did some fun stuff with them. It's a maps out some breaching charges for them, you know, kind of showed, showed them that where they were standing during their breaching was they were actually, you know, in a safer position.
Speaker 2:We did six months of surveillance for them, kind of showed them throughout their op tempo what, what. We already kind of had an idea what weapon systems during their training cycle was going to be the culprits. And you know, we have a really strong relationship with them now, just because you know it was a good place to start and, uh, we've gotten a lot of support from the state level tactical officer associations. Uh, the california association of tactical officers, a big supporter of bam. Uh, they've been helping us push us across the uh different state toas and um. Right now we're working with a program out in Prince George's County, maryland.
Speaker 1:So oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so again, these full-time, full-time, full-time SWAT teams, you know, and these guys are very passionate about what they do and you know, at the end of the day, they have similar types of uh. You know, similar problems, that similar issues that we see within the military, um, especially after years of uh exposures and trauma and things of that nature.
Speaker 1:So, um, yeah, trying to put the big fight there. So, yeah, not to mention, a vast majority of those guys are probably coming from the active duty side of military uh, with that long list of exposures going into the SWAT uh world, that's, yeah, that's a lot of individuals need assistance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, it's it's kind of it's kind of interesting. You know, when I dove into this world, I'm just trying to understand like, uh, you know where all the full-time teams were, uh, all the collateral duty teams and, um, you know, and trying to get ahead of their weapon systems, the energetics that they use to say, okay, we can train smarter. And so one of the things that I did was to kind of look. When I formed BAM, I kind of took a step back and said, okay, this is what the DoD is currently doing. Let me mirror some of these programs that they're doing, but really focus more on education and awareness up front.
Speaker 2:Yes, and so part of what we do is we come out and we give briefs to the units, brief at the different conferences and, you know, really bring the problem. Everyone knows a problem. It's like, oh yeah, you know, I know what you're talking about at the end of the day, but you know kind of relating it to things that they're familiar with. So like a real easy visual that we have in our training brief on blast and we talk about subconcussive, non-concussive injury or exposure versus concussive. It's like in this community everyone likes. It's like the boxer getting the jab versus the uppercut right that's being thrown, knocking someone out, non-concussive, concussive.
Speaker 2:And then, you know, the next slide is you know, here's a sniper shooting a 50 cow, you know, non-concussive versus like the IED blast right. So again, those are the, you know the kind of the parallels of the program. Bring that education forward. So yeah, and that's something I'll also teach them a little bit about the brain. You know, since I'm a neuroscientist, I like to, you know, throw in little sprinkle, little bits of knowledge here and there about the, how the brain works, and well, we need that that's the thing that that's missing is um, we saw professionals, uh, are are fighting men and women.
Speaker 1:we're not dummies, we're smart and we just need to be provided the information and be aware of it. And that's what I realized is really missing. There's not a lot of advocacy in that space of, like, empowering the individual at the training level, at the NCOs in charge of the unit training, being aware of like hey, this is a real thing, that you can make a positive impact on your troops, on your soldiers at the unit level, by simply changing some of the ways you're training. You don't have to stop training altogether. That's not what we're saying.
Speaker 2:Train smart no, it's, it's perfect, yeah, no, so you know this. That's a perfect segue man into this. This product we developed, it's called the Blast Mat. Yes, and uh, I have to. I have to say so. I was sitting at this uh uh event down in San Diego um, this uh retired sheriff and a sniper down, uh, um, uh, down in San Diego and he was like, okay, so is there a way for us to like see this, like, make this visible? No-transcript from an engineering perspective blast. And so I saw some of the work that he was putting together and kind of like my rudimentary models and being like I can make this so much better if we partner up and create this product called the Blast Mat.
Speaker 2:So you know, we have the Blast Mat for a bunch of different weapon systems.
Speaker 2:You know it's actively being used by the SWAT community for the 50 Cal and one of the things that you can think about is like when someone's using a weapon system, right, you can set like a set distance, minimum safe distance for you know, for you to be outside of this zone, but that's applicable.
Speaker 2:That's not really applicable for people who are using those weapon systems, like who are in an operationally necessary position, so for like a sniper, you know just doing a spotter, and maybe a range, a safety officer.
Speaker 2:Then you go to different weapon systems, like you know throwing rockets down, range, and if you're a gunner, a gunner unit level instructor, an RSO on range, you know all of these weapon systems. There's like little sweet spots right where you need to be in this position to help with the function of that weapon system. But if I pivot a foot or move it a couple inches, this way you can be out of this. You know this arbitrary, you know current line in the sand for psi threshold, get behind it, um, and you know to reduce your exposure. And so really what the blast mat does is just a visual representation uh, kind of like a heat map of you know risk zones and you can literally the operator has the opportunity, whether learning how to use this weapon system, to become the subject matter expert, this weapon system, and blast and be like, okay, if I stand here or I put my head here, I can put myself into a more optimal position for the long term so that's, really the that was.
Speaker 2:That was our entire goal with the blast mat was to just create a visualization tool, a graphical training aid that could be used today. Uh, you know, look where you are on the map. Okay, can I pivot a foot? Uh, can do. I need to move even further? Um, and you know, like, for instance, like when you do, do you drop mortars when you're in your career? Yeah, so you know, 60, 81, like 120, like there are sweet spots and there's spots where you shouldn't be when you're dropping mortars.
Speaker 1:We are very good at finding all the wrong places.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right. And then when you, when you, when you, when you find that spot, you're like, oh, I felt that one, and so you know this is the thing right. So training and this is why I think it's so important, because you know part of the goal of fast as you can, that that muscle memory translates and that you're able to get, you know, fulfill the mission but also be in a safe position, so, or you know, or more optimal position, and I think that's that's the big goals of the blast mat. So I think it's so far it's been really. You know, we've had some really good reviews on it, just waiting for big army to make some purchases.
Speaker 1:Yeah, is it available to just anybody can purchase on your website?
Speaker 2:or yeah, so they can order them direct through us or you can order them through GSA, so they're on GSA Advantage. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're already out there on GSA.
Speaker 1:So if you're listening and you're a warrant officer, get off your lazy ass and buy that for your team. They're going to thank you when their brain isn't mashed potatoes years later.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you know it's. There's such a focus on brain health now and it's been there for the past couple of years. Just more and more people are talking about it and you know, like podcasts like yours and Bruce's, and you know you can just list goes on and more and more people talk about brain health and you know, making sure that you know you get optimal performance throughout the lifespan. It's it's kind of a no brainer and but for me, you know it kind of. You know that that's me some for someone who's been like in it for the last four years, being like how can we make this better? How can we improve people's lives? How, you know, how can we prevent the horrible outcomes that we're seeing and hearing about too often, prevent the?
Speaker 1:horrible outcomes that we're seeing and hearing about too often. Well, the big problem that I've seen and finally come to understand is, as our guys are leaving, they're being diagnosed with a lot of mental health issues. They're being given diagnosis of PTSD, ptsd, ptsd, mental health, mental health. And when you're going through your QTC evaluation and it comes to that TBI checkup, they're giving you a test that doesn't really truly show or really diagnose TBI. They're giving you a MOCA test, which is at best a few hours after having a concussive incident. And then for a lot of their times out, they're starting to realize that hey, maybe this is not just PTSD, maybe this is something else. And if they do and luckily are able to get help and get treatment, it's found out like, hey, you have a TBI, you had an actual years of being a paratrooper, years of being infantry, you've knocked your noggin, you've exposed yourself to blast and now they're finding ways to get better.
Speaker 1:And a lot of these people are actively talking about it and they're getting out in podcasts and talking to people and sharing their stories and being able to say like, hey, it wasn't PTSD, it was a circumstance that came from my time of being a paratrooper, came from my time being a artilleryman. These are real things that we need to talk about and share more, because that's the way we open up the discussion to the guys are actually still in the fight, still doing the job and saying like, hey, maybe I need to be a little more smart, or a little smarter about the way I'm training, a little smarter about the way I advocate for wearing your ear pro, wearing your protection, being smart about training, because we tend to have this culture of like if you're doing something safe, it's not cool. You got to be the guy that goes and does the things haphazardly. No, I'm telling you, there's nothing cool about blast exposure, nothing cool about TBIs. Do everything you can to mitigate those injuries so you can stay in the fight longer.
Speaker 1:We need you in the profession. We need you there so you can train the next generation of great soldiers to take up that warrior spirit and go after those jobs that are vital to our nation's defense. We want you to be there, but I also want you to be healthy and have a life after the military. Have that second chapter so you're not falling by the wayside like a lot of our GWAT veterans are doing, and your program what you're doing with BAM Blast Analytics is freaking awesome, and it just shows that the partnership is there of passionate researchers, passionate educators that are coming into the space wanting to be part of the resolution, and we need more of that. So I can't thank you enough for what you're doing.
Speaker 2:You know, I appreciate that. But at the same time, people like yourself, you know, making sure that you know the guys on the front line understand that the last itself is nobody wants to, you know, be in the bad spot. You know, past that MSD, you know K team on a breaching charge. But you know, k team on a on a on a breaching charge. But you know you have to sometimes right Depending on the op Right. And so I think, when you start thinking about training smarter, really you have to take this, you know, perspective of, okay, I have to train for this mission, Uh, this is my goal. Okay, do I need to do this every single time? Or, you know, maybe, if I need to blow this door a second time, maybe I go back a little bit further, maybe I go K45. Maybe I go K45 plus two doors and you know, make sure it's not, you know it's not even a register for, like PSI exposure, right, but if you have to, you do it and you know you get out there and you and you train smarter, right, okay, Okay, well, I'm going to go blow some doors today and you go, you know, clear house, do some CQB, Maybe then the next day let's avoid combatives. You know, like, when you, when you think about, when you think about some of the easy things you can do, just look in your training schedule and say, okay, on this, my, my training evolution is going to be I'm on Monday this week I'm going to be on the 50 cal range. You know, tuesday shouldn't be combatives, right?
Speaker 2:Just, you know, look at the training cycle, move stuff around and you know, and you can implement that really easily and that's, you know, on our side, for us the big win was, you know, when we worked with Deep Platoon. You know, we worked with uh, with uh, with deep platoon, uh, you know, the Lieutenant, lieutenant McMillian, just like he really absorbed everything that we said and said, okay, well, I'm going to look at my training schedule. Here's the data. I'm going to start moving stuff around over my six month evolution.
Speaker 2:So the first segments of the, you know, first two months of their training cycle they were taking a bunch of hits, some over four PSI, and that happens, right, it just depends on the training scenario. And then what they started doing after they started seeing what their exposures were and they started spacing stuff out and over the six-month training cycle their exposures went down and spread across over that six month cycle and you know the the team felt like they were more resilient at the outcome of it and you know they're still implementing those changes today, and so training smart is important. So, in addition to like taking less exposures to blast, also looking at your training schedule and trying not to get, you know, get your noggin run, uh, run by, you know doing some combatives or something or maybe even, like you did, you know, avoid some, you know parachuting for a couple of days as well, If you can.
Speaker 2:you know again, look at, look at the training schedule.
Speaker 1:So, that's why it's so important to plug in white space. Find downtime, find downtime, dude. It's so important when I remember putting the long range tracker up and and and planning for that, that long train up and it's like, dude, leave some white space on the calendar for down days after heavy training, anything that requires you being on the range doing heavy the guns doing, working with artillery, working with your mortar teams. Like, figure out a way to put in some white space and everybody complains about it. But you know what your men will thank you when they're, when they're able to go into their next chapter and they're not dealing with health issues, they'll say, wow, I'm glad I had this guy as my platoon sergeant and he knew what to do with scheduling. He knew how to give us a little bit of downtime. Same for the ODAs If you're a team sergeant, it's your team, you run it. Put some downtime, make sure that you're going to the mortar range the next day.
Speaker 1:Admin work Guys are going to complain about having to do paperwork, but guess what? They'll be ready for the fight when they need to go.
Speaker 2:Kind of what we've been talking about, I think, with so much focus on this now and thinking about, you know, longevity, lethality, all these things, all these components, right, like what recovery does and built in recovery days, even if it's, you know, maybe you know, depending on how it's spread across, that you know your training schedule, uh, recovery days are important and you know, uh, I I think having people and and and understanding that you know this will affect you, at least you know everyone said, well, at least it'll affect your hearing, right? Well, you know, if you lose your hearing, you're going to. You know there's a higher, higher probability of you getting dementia as you get older. So, you know, we got to go past our ears, we got to go thinking about our brain. We also, you know, got to think about our guts and the rest of our body, the rest of the entire holistic, whole body approach, because blast doesn't just affect our brains, right, it affects everything, everything, everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not just magical force field that only impacts the brain.
Speaker 2:Your entire body come to find out all of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, and Dr Engel, thank you so much for being here today. If guys want to check out your information, where do they go? Well, there's a couple of places.
Speaker 2:You can check out our website, wwwbam360.com. B-a-a-m-3-6-0. You can also look me up on LinkedIn. We do post some videos out there on some of the research we're doing small arm stuff, energetic stuff and if you're thinking about, you know, helping the cause, you know we do have a GoFundMe that's been out there in the world for like four years and you know every single dollar helps get the information into operators' hands. So provide that link as well.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and all those links will be in the episode description. So pause right there, check out Dr Engel's work, check out his research and be informed. And go buy one of those blast mats for your team and be that cool guy that takes care of his people. You know we need more people like that. Again, thank you all for tuning in, but before I let you go, just a reminder again go to Apple Podcasts, go to Spotify, I'll wait. Go to the review section, leave us a five-star review and leave us a few comments, and if you've enjoyed the content, please share us with your friends. They'll probably like it too.
Speaker 1:Again, dr Angle, thank you so much for being here. Thank you all for tuning in and we'll see you all next time. Until then, take care. Thanks for tuning in and don't forget to like, follow, share, subscribe and review us on your favorite podcast platform. If you want to support us, head on over to buymeacoffeecom. Forward, slash setcoffpodcast and buy us a coffee. Connect with us on Instagram X or TikTok and and remember we get through this together. If you're still listening the episode's over. Yeah, there's no more Tune in tomorrow or next week.
