Security Halt!
Welcome to Security Halt! Podcast, the show dedicated to Veterans, Active Duty Service Members, and First Responders. Hosted by retired Green Beret Deny Caballero, this podcast dives deep into the stories of resilience, triumph, and the unique challenges faced by those who serve.
Through powerful interviews and candid discussions, Security Halt! Podcast highlights vital resources, celebrates success stories, and offers actionable tools to navigate mental health, career transitions, and personal growth.
Join us as we stand shoulder-to-shoulder, proving that even after the mission changes, the call to serve and thrive never ends.
Security Halt!
Mental Health Journeys: Supporting Special Operations Forces with Dr. Christopher Ostrander
In this eye-opening episode of Security Halt!, host Deny Caballero sits down with Dr. Christopher Ostrander, a mental health professional dedicated to supporting the Special Operations Forces (SOF) community. Dr. Ostrander shares his journey into the field and dives deep into the unique mental health challenges faced by SOF personnel and their families.
The conversation uncovers the cultural barriers to emotional expression in military settings, the importance of vulnerability in the healing process, and the evolving dynamics of therapy for service members and their spouses. Dr. Ostrander emphasizes the role of culturally competent clinicians in building trust and providing effective treatment, especially through innovative solutions like couples therapy, stellate ganglion blocks, and online therapy platforms.
This episode also introduces the Soft Network, a groundbreaking initiative connecting veterans with therapists who understand their unique cultural and emotional needs. Whether you're a veteran seeking help or someone looking to understand the complexities of military mental health, this episode offers valuable insights and actionable advice.
🎧 Listen now on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or YouTube, and don't forget to follow, like, share, and subscribe for more thought-provoking conversations on mental health, resilience, and recovery. Your support helps us reach more listeners and make a greater impact!
BE A BRO! Support the show!!
buymeacoffee.com/sechaltpodcast
https://buymeacoffee.com/sechaltpodcast
Looking for hand crafted, custom work, military memorabilia or need something laser engraved? Connect with my good friend Eric Gilgenast.
Instagram: haus_gilgenast_woodworks_main
https://www.instagram.com/haus_gilgenast_woodworks_main/
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to the Journey of Mental Health in the SOF Community
05:55 Understanding Trauma: Big T vs. Small T
11:49 Navigating Complex Trauma: Client-Centered Approaches
18:03 The Importance of Cultural Competency in Therapy
26:42 Emotional Disconnect in Relationships
36:40 Cultural Competency in Therapy
46:23 Connecting with the Soft Network
Instagram: @securityhalt
Tik Tok: @security.halt.pod
LinkedIn: Deny Caballero
Follow Dr. Ostrander on LinkedIn and SOF Network on social media today!
LinkedIn: Christopher Ostrander
https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-ostrander-1a398617b/
LinkedIn: SOF Network
https://www.linkedin.com/company/sof-network/
Instagram: SOF Network
https://www.instagram.com/sof.network/
Produced by Security Halt Media
Security Odd Podcast. Let's go the only podcast that's purpose-built from the ground up to support you Not just you, but the wider audience, everybody. Authentic, impactful and insightful conversations that serve a purpose to help you. And the quality has gone up. It's decent and it's hosted by me, danny Caballero. It's decent. It's hosted by me, denny Caballero. Dr Christopher Ostrander. Welcome to Security Hall man. Glad to be here. Dude, what you created is something that is absolutely vital and it's necessary, and today.
Speaker 2:I want to figure out how do you find yourself working in this community and helping so many individuals? Yeah, whether you want to call it divine intervention or dumb luck, I think, being a male in a pink collar profession, I had a huge part in it. So I wrapped up grad school and me and my wife moved to Wilmington, north Carolina, and so, for those that aren't familiar, kind of triangulated between Bragg and Lejeune. And so for those that aren't familiar, kind of triangulated between Bragg and Lejeune, obviously there's a lot of current and former SAW folks running around. And so, yeah, just walked in the waiting room one day and there happened to be a former force recon guy in there that had chosen my name, and so that was kind of the start of it. And then my brother-in-law he's actually an E9 in the Marine Corps, so I knew enough about MARSOC and just special forces and he was neighbors with the guy and just knew, hey, you're not going to, you know, hang a shingle and say, hey, this is the organization or this is the group of people I want to work with. If you don't come from that, you know personal connection or background, and so it was awesome, you know, I really enjoyed working with that person. It was a great connection.
Speaker 2:But then, over the course of really the next four or five years, I kept running into. You know the wife would find me and you know, after a session or two she'd do the sniff test and then she'd be like, well, I think I can get him in. Or you know, some of the some guy was retired and he'd reach out and so it just, you know, slowly, kind of grew and grew and grew. By the time, uh, I was about 2018, I realized, okay, this is who I want to work with, and most of my caseload at that point was, uh, current and former soft folks, and most of my caseload at that point was current and former soft folks. So that just kind of happens slowly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's take it. Let's take it way back, man. Let's just jump in the way back machine and find out, like, what led you to even dive into this world of mental health For a lot of us. You know, I found myself wanting to study this after falling apart, after going through everything that a vast majority of our community and our GWAL veterans go through, and that's what made me just like okay, if I'm going to lean into these modalities and find my way to getting back to the better version of me. I want to study this so I can help others. But I want to understand why you chose to go this route. What was the defining moment in your education where you're like, you know what? Like, we need some more male representation in here.
Speaker 2:Uh, again, I think it was, uh, you know, for me personally, definitely divine intervention, um, you know, typical, and I think this is where I probably connect with, with people in the community. Like I grew up in Wyoming, um, you know, played sports. My dad played college football, my brother played college football, my other brother rode bulls. So, um, you know, like very much like rub dirt on it, get over it done, um, that type of an upbringing and you know we loved it. Uh, it was awesome, but there was always friction, um, in different places, different relationships, and I think, being the youngest, I was like super keen and kind of watching what was happening with the family dynamics, uh, being the youngest, less of a voice, and just kind of observing. Um, my dad definitely had his, uh, some traumatic experiences on his end, so they were untreated, and so it was very much, um, you know, at times kind of walking on eggshells and figuring out, hey, when's it okay, when's it not okay? Those types of experiences, and so I was just focused on athletics, uh, and similar to a lot of individuals that I've met from the soft community. Yeah, I kind of had to burn my life down, um, and and find that I needed help and then, through the course of that process, my own counseling, my own treatment a story I like to joke around and tell my students, as well as I even tell my clients, is the first time I ever went to therapy. It was during an intake and after about 45 minutes the clinician looked across the table and was like, do you think you could feel anything other than piss off? And he slid a chart across the table and it was. You know, I was 21 years old. He slid a chart across the table and I'm looking at an emotions chart and I was like I've never seen one. I guess. Uh, and that was just kind of a huge aha, um, in and out of like substance use, different things. And that was just kind of kind of a, a huge aha, um, in and out of like substance use, different things.
Speaker 2:And then once things kind of organized in my life and I got things squared away, went back to school, was playing basketball again not really focused on um, a career at that point, but then once that wrapped up, uh, me and my wife had met and then, through heading to grad school, it kind of rolled out for me. And then I realized like, okay, it's unique being a male. There's a lot to offer here. But again, I was really just focused on couples because me and my wife were going through education at the same time and we just really liked doing couples work. But the first client I ever had in grad school happened to be a young boy that had been raped, and so that was like jumping into the deep end.
Speaker 2:On big T trauma, a lot of marital stuff you know, we talk about as counselor educators like there's big T trauma and then there's small T trauma and it's a spectrum and a lot of what happened is very similar. The consequences are very, very different. So I was very familiar with small T trauma and even the components of large T trauma. That was like first, like you know, diving into the deep end and from there I was kind of hooked. At that point, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know it's funny. You mentioned something that I hear and I experienced myself seeing that emotions wheel. The first time a counselor brings it up to you and we realized that anger has become the only thing that we feel, the only thing that we know to be true. And I remember always telling myself and a lot of us tend to say it like we're logical, we're not emotional, we don't have time for emotions, and we tend to think that emotions are this thing that we don't have to focus on. And then, later on in life, as we're going through our challenges, as we're going through, you know, maybe you find yourself going through mental health crisis or you're transitioning, going into that civilian life, you find yourself having to come to terms, the idea and the understanding that, like, oh wow, maybe I knew need to understand my emotions. Maybe I can't just be this asshole that runs around like a tyrant in my house. Is this something that you've noticed with our demographic? Is this something?
Speaker 2:that you've noticed with our demographic, yeah, so I think, if I can take it outside of soft real quick and go on a 30,000 foot view, so both my grandfather's spot in World War II, if you go back and just look at what was happening in the world, you've got quite literally Americans fighting for survival, whether the Great Depression or World War II. None of the research is caught up. And I would say psychology some people may differ but I would say psychology is still really young at that point compared to modern medicine. Fast forward to my parents' generation. They were raised by the greatest generation and you know it was hard work, take care of things like don't get into debt, all of that. And then they raised us and so you know you're one generation removed from people that are quite literally just living to survive and so on. Maslow's hierarchy of needs food, water and shelter are really high. Emotions, relationships are pretty low. Now I'm assuming you're close to my age. How old are you? If I can ask? I'm 40. Okay, I'm a little bit older than you, but yeah, so relatively grew up the same period.
Speaker 2:Really the research about the brain and emotions has really exploded, probably in the last 20 years, I'll say and so you've got psychology and the study of the mind, neuroscience, really coming into maybe its adult phase as a field, and so we now just know how important all of that is. You're either pissed off, which is acceptable, or you're happy because you're enjoying yourself. And you know, I don't remember reading a book growing up geared towards males, or watching a movie that really talked about, like, the spectrum of emotions. You know, man, I lost the big game and, and you know whatever, high school football today, and I'm just feeling inadequate to add, like that that was never modeled to us.
Speaker 2:And then, as a culture as well, this is the other piece that I think is really really important to understand. Coming from a sports background, military background, the idea of avoidance is really really important, right? So when we think about avoidance in athletics, in academics, it's hey, even though you're tired, you're hungry, your mind's someplace else, hey, compartmentalize that to perform this task. Hey, you don't feel good and you're on the treadmill. Well, sorry, dude, you gotta keep going.
Speaker 2:You got another mile to go, and now we know the benefits of that you know being able to compartmentalize and, you know, focus on something even though there's physical or emotional pain. We've taken that probably in our generation and umbrella that across all spectrums in life. When now we know, hey, that's really really helpful in basic training, that's really really helpful in the Q course, that's really really helpful at BUDS and on deployment, but then when we come back it's probably just as equally important to unzip and start processing that and we just didn't get any of that information on the back end. Yeah, and so for SOF to come full circle, you know, you guys, if that was the general culture in America for males, but you guys are 10 X now, you know in that. And so of course you guys are going to be in a category in the experiencing some of the things to a degree that you know most of us haven't, uh, just by the sheer nature of your job.
Speaker 1:But then you're going to take that idea of avoidance and and take it to the next level as well, yeah, and it's also important to understand that the individuals that get attracted to this lifestyle often come from backgrounds that aren't as pleasant as people tend to think, individuals that come with a lot of baggage.
Speaker 1:So stacking more trauma on top of trauma makes for a very complex individual and in my experience when I was going through the worst and some of my friends that had similar backgrounds when they started to unravel, it made things very difficult. Having to reconcile and kind of dissect the things that happened prior to the military and then everything that happened during your deployments and in the military. And in your experience, where's the best place to start? When somebody comes into your office, we often hear of let's process and deal with one key moment, let's work through that process. But when somebody has a lifetime filled with trauma, it's often what I hear is like you want me to focus on one thing, you want me to focus on one thing in the process. Like I don't know, lady, I don't know how we can just focus on one.
Speaker 2:It really. You know, client-centered, client-led is a term we use in the counseling field and so, depending upon what's happening with that client, depending upon what they're most motivated to tackle, that would be something I would sit down with a client and assess hey, what is it that you want to tackle? Yeah, it's super overwhelming to have a career of 15, 20, 25 years of trauma experiences and then on top of that, the childhood experiences that most likely teed you up to actually go in the community. I would argue those experiences made you more likely, once you got in the military, to find the community because, quite literally, you know, going back to that avoidance and that ability to compartmentalize, you've been practicing that probably since childhood and so I would argue that part of your brain is probably much further developed than the average human being that's walking into the military. And so if you have any athletic ability or any intellect, it's, you know it's like a really easy step then into the soft community because you're going to excel really, really easily. But yeah, depending upon the client, I mean, it really depends on where you would like to go, and I think that piece and having that discussion is really important, one for the assessment of what's happening.
Speaker 2:But two, you can't take a client, any client, let alone soft, and say, oh, I recognize. Yep, you told me that you've got a, you know, a negative childhood experience. Maybe you were abused or maybe your mom died. Fill in the blank, you really need to address that. If nobody wants to address that, they're not going to let a stranger on a couch or across the screen push them in that direction. Um, that would, you know, do damage to the therapeutic alliance, the trust in the room and so on and so forth. But then taking one of y'all and saying the same thing like hey, danny, we really need to talk about X? That's even worse and I think, unfortunately, I've heard stories of individuals in this community that have had that experience, which is part of the reason we exist soft network in the first place.
Speaker 1:No, I feel like now more than ever, we've talked about it, we championed it, we promote the idea of being vulnerable, but it's still a difficult thing to try to discuss and try to get that individual to make their way into an office. You know, get that individual to make their way into an office. What do you think it's made you so successful in being able to build that rapport, to bring about that true vulnerability? To get that, first, because I know in my experience everything that I was trying to say was always skirted or a sidestep just before the moment of like, really, truly being vulnerable, just because we tend to think that it's a weakness. And I mean, a year goes by and you're talking to the same p3 therapist over and over again. You're not really moving the needle, you're just doing enough to kind of like, keep her at peace, to keep her happy. And have you had the same experience with individuals where it's just not? You know everything, everything happens at their own pace. But do you find it difficult to get that true vulnerability with our guys?
Speaker 2:I think it makes sense that some clinicians struggle with that. I think, depending upon your awareness of what's happening in the room and picking up on the subtle cues and what they're telling you, what they're not telling you should be an indicator. I'm a counselor educator, so this is something we talk about with our students all the time. You need to be really dialed into what's happening and the verbiage and the language, the body language, of what's happening in the room, specifically when you start talking about trauma, because there are shifts and there is indicators of you know, once somebody gets rolling, whether they're kind of holding things back or not, and so I think, if you're really attuned to that, you can kind of recognize that and then maybe have a conversation for clinicians that don't, or aren't maybe as aware. Yeah, I think that they can definitely miss some opportunities For you, though, in your community. I would, you know, do the counselor thing and ask you like, why is vulnerability such a struggle for you?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 1:It definitely takes that, having somebody that's willing to give you that gentle prod, especially when you're dealing with guys that aren't comfortable and they're not used to just walking in and divulging so much. I know there's a lot of programs out there that kind of provide. There's always that fear that if I talk too much or I get too much I'm going to lose my job, I'm going to lose my profession, and that's always the one thing the guys keep coming back is within peer-to-peer support, within being there from your friends. There's a little bit of vulnerability, there's a little bit of being that, finding that comfort and knowing that you're not going to divulge anything that I say. But we have to be able to kill the myth that it's going to lead to you losing your job. It's going to lead to you losing your livelihood being on a team.
Speaker 1:I think the ultimate goal is to be better, to get better, to be able to advance through what you're going through, to process it and move forward so you can continue being that teammate, continue moving forward in your career, become that team sergeant, go on to become a sergeant major. But at times I feel just even still talking to a lot of guys, there's still that idea that, like man, if I get put on meds, if I get sent to a place and I won't be able to carry out my career, is that something that you still deal with? And having to tell guys and reassure them that like hey, man, like this is no different than going to the hospital or going to see a doctor for a physical injury.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've definitely seen that over the course of my career and I think, um, this is why cultural competency, specifically in the soccer community, is so important. Uh, you guys are no different than, I would say, professional athletes in the sense that your number one goal is to be deployed. Right, you want to go on deployment. It's literally the whole reason. Most likely you got into soft community. I mean, that may be the main reason, but one of the main reasons of why back, just thinking for myself playing basketball, I would do anything Lie, cheat and steal, you know, take you know whatever. A handful I've broken it with, you know probably could take it three less, it would have been fine, but just to feel good enough to go play the next game, because my overall goal was just playing, I just wanted to be on the team and go play and so if you have that understanding, I think as a clinician, you sit down with somebody you know in the community, that's active duty. Then you have to take with a grain of salt. Okay, like the overall goal that Denny is coming is, ultimately, he wants to be redeployable so I can sit here and poke and prod and ask the right questions and hear all your mommy, daddy issues or, you know, do the counselor thing. But is that going to be the thing that serves Denny the best? Or is this more of like, hey, I can build stronger for, potentially, do a pit stop with Denny, show him that this is a safe place, you know, let him dip his toe in the water and potentially get him back next week or the following week or a month when you month, when he comes back from that qualification and we could dive a little bit deeper. And I think, as a clinician, you have to juggle all of that, because if you're not and you're just whoa man, you've got a lot of trauma, like, hey, you've experienced a lot of that. We really need to unpack that. You're driving the agenda as opposed to recognizing what's most important to the client and letting him drive that. And so I think there's a feathering of the throttle and figuring out, okay, what's most important with this individual, figuring out, how well do they really trust me in this moment? Can we even have a conversation of like, hey, there's this, this, this, this. At some point we need to circle back, or is that even going to potentially close the door? And how well can this session or this conversation, serve this client, and if you're not having that conversation, I think internally you're wasting your time.
Speaker 2:One of the things that we talk about as counselor educators all the time is there's three people that typically walk into a therapy session. There's the customer. They come in, they there, you know, money on the table, I'll do whatever you want. You say jump off a bridge, or jump off the bridge for that homework, like I'll do anything to make whatever's going on, stop. Then there's the visitor. The visitor is just kind of, hey, I'm window shop and checking things out, like you know, yeah, I'll tell you a little story. But then when you give them homework, or really when it's push, come to shove, they're not putting money on the table, they don't really want to change Right.
Speaker 2:And then there's the complaint.
Speaker 2:This is the teenager that gets drug in the therapy. The husband that's get gets drug in the therapy. And so as a clinician and I mainly specialize with couples. Yes, I deal with a lot of trauma, but in the scope of our network I would say there's excellent individual trauma therapists. I would say, hey, I'll probably stake my claim more as a couples expert, even though I do work in both worlds.
Speaker 2:But just because there's some amazing clinicians, I think that they're a few notches for sure ahead of me a few notches for sure ahead of me, but if you're not knowing who's walking in the door and then addressing them and the communication exactly which one customer complaint and visitor, then you're wasting your time.
Speaker 2:And so one of the things that I, you know over the course of my career, encounter a lot is like the wife is the customer or the husband's the customer and the other one's the complaint, and so I know, hey, I have one session, maybe two, to get them bought in, and so that changes things right.
Speaker 2:So if the wife is the customer and the SF guy is the complainant, then most likely I'm going to do everything I can to build a therapeutic alliance with him, even at the result of looking like I'm taking his side because I know she's bought in. I know I've got four or five sessions with her and I can burn some bridges, I can burn some collateral with her. But him, this could be the one time that I get an opportunity to really connect with him, and if I don't do it well and I don't do it right, maybe I push that guy off for another five or 10 years of getting help and so understanding what's in the room and the dynamics in the room. It's critically important because it determines what you're doing and what you're saying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's often the issue that we have. The spouse finally gets fed up with us and the chaos that we bring home. And one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about is that dynamic of and I've seen it play out a lot the service member perhaps gets sent to a treatment center, gets the opportunity to go somewhere to heal, to recover, to get tools. He's gone for a week, couple weeks, a month, two months comes back home Now the spouse sees a better, happier, educated husband that is now trying to do the right thing. But there's this animosity, there's this how dare you go off get better? And I'm sitting here and I'm struggling. You brought all this chaos into the house for 10, 15, 20 years. You go off to this retreat, you go off to this treatment. You go off to this treatment. You're feeling better, you've got all these tools. What about me? How do we support our spouse and get into an office, like with you, and be there for them and try to help them heal after all the things we put them through?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there's several things that are going on here. One, I think again, I'm a big picture guy. I think you have to understand what that experience is like for the spouse. They're married or you know they're living with somebody who's not their primary allegiance. Your primary allegiance is your team and being deployable, or yourself. Let's just be honest.
Speaker 2:The military is the other woman. She has priority, and the wife, or you know, the live-in girlfriend, she's always second fiddle, and then to be the one that's banged up. And then all of a sudden, you get to go to the fancy Nyko, you get to go to the fancy inpatient facility right, you get all the bells and whistles. You get to go up to you know home base and work with the Harvard docs, like, and all of a sudden, magically, you're better. That's a tough pill to swallow for a lot of rightfully so, because they're the ones that have been dealing with the worst version of you. And then oftentimes, yeah, the service member comes back and it's like come on, babe, I'm better. And I think one of the things that individuals in that situation really need to understand is the spouse is always behind information and then in a situation like that, you can I've seen this plenty of times in my own practice. You can be happy, healthy and feel like you turned her over a new leaf and now she's experiencing that disconnect of like great, we didn't even heal together. Great, he got all these fancy bells and whistles and some of the best docs and I've got to figure this out on my own and take care of the kids and make sure this marriage is still glued together. Who wouldn't be bitter with that experience? That's tough.
Speaker 2:Giving them the grace and enough runway to catch up emotionally, I think is really really important.
Speaker 2:The things having a conversation with the service member is giving them tools to actually work with their wife, because she's now grieving this other thing that once again you got to go off and experience without her and you're again emotionally in a different place, and so I think one of the things that I've seen over and over and over again in the community is the wife is constantly trying to catch up to where you're at emotionally and that could be in the pits of hell, right, because you're not disclosing what went bad and how bad it was on the last appointment, and so she's digging, digging, digging, and then maybe you give her a few pieces and then you're gone again.
Speaker 2:Well, now that information's fresh, she's just now grieving for you and for her, but now you're onto something else, and so that catch up is constantly happening, and so I think it's really important in that situation then and I'm repeating myself, but getting the service members some really effective communication tools to connect with her while she's catching up and not get frustrated with her of like, come on, I'm better, like we should be good now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's. It's very important to understand that and, like dude, you're going to go back home. It's your turn to be supportive. It's your turn to understand that you've got all these great tools to be there for your spouse. Be willing to go to therapy. Couples therapy is absolutely helpful. Um, one of the things that's really really helping a lot of people is Stella Ganglion Blocks, and there are so many resources to help you and your wife go to a treatment center together, get treated and then also have talk therapy after Stella Ganglion Block. So if you're listening and have heard about that, here's another free shot Reach out to Green Beret Foundation. They have helped a lot of couples get access to that. So if you're listening and have heard about that, here's another free shot Reach out to Green Beret Foundation. They have helped a lot of couples. Get access to that and get follow-on therapy.
Speaker 2:And in your experience, Doc, what are some other things that you've seen work alongside with traditional therapy? I mean, the retreats are great. So sometimes that can really, you know, dislodge a lot of things, whether it's with a couple, whether it's individual, getting them outside of you know their four walls or their town and just getting them away from their phone. So, whether it's like Boulder Crest or I mean, I don't want to start endorsing a bunch, but I just know a ton of them endorsing a bunch, but I just know a ton of them.
Speaker 2:Going and getting away can be highly, um, helpful in a lot of different ways. Um, yeah, Stella Ganglienbach, I've had clients that use one and it's amazing, I've had clients that it took three, um, but then it was super helpful. Um, individuals that hey, uh, again, I'm not even going to push therapy, just decide, hey, I'm going to go on a hunting trip or I'm going to go backpacking for a week and just go live under the stars and just reset. That can be highly therapeutic, just getting out in nature. Obviously, there's emerging treatment modalities, whether it's hyperbaric, chamber, psychedelics, there's a lot that can be paired with therapy. That, uh, is showing promising results at this point.
Speaker 1:No, and let's take it into creating the soft network. How did that idea come about?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that first client, um, going back to the beginning, um, we worked together, me and his girlfriend. Uh, him and I did some individual work, but then they moved. He was already retired and so he just had a super unique set of presenting problems, even to this day, probably some of the most unique that I've worked through and so he would reach out periodically. She would reach out, hey, who do you suggest in the small area on the West Coast? And I would look through Psych Today. I don't know if you're familiar with psych today, but for the listeners you can go on psychology today and there's a directory of clinicians and short bio, some of their qualifications, training things like that, but nothing that I really felt like, yeah, this is going to be a fit. And he was a guy at the time that I knew if I paired him with the wrong person or say, hey, you really go check out this person, most likely, you know, like it was a bad experience that he may walk and not come back, and so that really agitated me, just as a clinician and wanting to help, and so that experience kind of happened a few more times through the course of my career. Experience kind of happened a few more times, uh, through the course of my career and, um, the more that I got involved with some of my clients, I would ask them well, what about this, what about this? And so I was just learning, learning, learning, learning along the way, Um, and so by the time I wrapped up the PhD, um, I had just kind of seen enough of the barriers and the holes in in, um, the community to get help.
Speaker 2:And so I sat down and just kind of wrote out hey, this is, this is what I think would be helpful. And then I passed around to a few people that I knew that worked within the community and they're like it's a great idea, I think you should do this. And so, um, yeah, it was just seeing the problems working, the problem struggling with Tricare, which I think Tricare is great in some instances for us as providers, um, yeah, it's, it's a it's it's for me I can talk about myself it's. It's been more of a barrier than anything else. Um, which is incredibly frustrating, uh, because they kind of hold the keys to the castle when it comes to working with active duty and and even, uh, some pieces, uh, retired folks. And so that's when I knew, okay, I can't fix Tricare. I'm not going to get involved with military insurance Like I. Just that's a fight for somebody that has much more horsepower.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But, what I found was, you know, okay, finding providers that we can, you know, go back to that first client, pass clients back and forth. And so at first I really just wanted to find a network of clinicians that either came from soft or like myself and just kind of fell into working with the soft community and really understood the presenting problems. And what I found was a ton of individuals spouses and former operators that had gone back to school, gotten their degree and their license and were working, and nobody had kind of brought them together. And so as I was bringing them together, um and, and kind of calling the different nonprofits and saying, hey, here's what we're doing. Uh, you know, if you'd like to use us, use us. They came and said, wow, this is great. The reason we don't have our own providers is because of liability legally is what I've been told. And so if we endorse, let's say, you know, the Green Beret Foundation, if we endorse, you know, 50 clinicians and one of them makes a mistake, then potentially the whole nonprofit's up for litigation.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow, and so and I heard that from several organizations. And so, and just to be clear, the Green Beret Foundation did not tell me that.
Speaker 1:I was just using them as an example, and so We'll put a quick disclaimer.
Speaker 2:Be clear the green brave foundation did not tell me that I was just using them as an example, and so disclaimer there. Yeah, um, so we kind of fell in this sweet spot where we're clinicians, we have our own insurance and you know, okay, we all work autonomously. And so that's kind of where we fell, into this awesome spot where they say, hey, you can find the clinicians, that's clinicians, we'll support our community. And then we'd find another part of our community, you know whether it be, you know special forces, charitable trust, hey, we got all 18 series guys. And then, uh, you know operation healing forces, they're down here in Tampa with us and they, you know, do a lot of of all saw, um, and then just continue to kind of grow. And so we were just focused on I'll really find these many providers as human, like hospital, and that's really what started it all.
Speaker 1:And what providers specifically so?
Speaker 2:any, currently any licensed clinical mental health clinician, so it could be actually a psychiatrist who's an MD that you know works with psychopharmacology. The vast majority, I think we've got three, now two or three. One of them actually stood up. I'm going to blank on his last name, paul. He stood up the West Coast NICO, but he's out in San Diego. We sit down and talk with him. Obviously, hey, you know the community, you know the presenting problems, but then also, what's your approach and how do you typically handle the doling out of medication? I think that's really important conversation, specifically with psychiatrists. But then, when it comes to I'll just say therapists as the entire umbrella, we're talking about licensed psychologists, licensed social workers, marriage and family counselors or, excuse me, marriage and family therapists and then licensed counselors. Um, at some point we may broaden that and include PAs, surgeons, etc.
Speaker 1:But right now we're just focused on clinical mental health and I think that's really important because, like I said, I have talked with so many individuals that either contact me through social media or through the website and they want to get help. They're retired, they're on the outside so they don't have access to a P3 clinic. They don't have access to the same vetted network. But they don't want to talk to a civilian anymore. They don't want to talk to somebody that's just on the outside, that has no ties to the community. I find it really difficult.
Speaker 1:I felt completely comfortable talking to any doctor as long as I had a good rapport with them, but some people still have that feeling of like, if you're not part of this community, I don't want to divulge things to you. I think that part of it. There's a lot of myths that still need to get killed, like the idea that if you divulge something from your deployment, that it's classified, it has no bearing on your mental health. You don't have to worry about that stuff. You guys still deal with that. There's very much a group of people that still want to see individuals from the community or people that come from their area. They have a background, understanding what we're like. So that's why I feel like it's super important to promote the soft network, to be able to connect people with doctors and professionals that understand what you're going through, because they've seen us, they know our demographic. We're very different and, once again, how many providers do you have within SOP Network right now?
Speaker 2:Currently we have 85 clinicians. Probably by the end of the year we might be closer to 90. There's a few people that are kind of onboarding Licensed in 46 states and to your point, I think it's really important. So I'll just take it outside of SOP, right?
Speaker 2:So I'll just take it outside of SOP, right. So in psychology or just the therapy community, one of the things we're really focused on, just as a group, is culture and cultural competency, and I think this is one of the things that people make a mistake. So, ethically, there's an ethical issue here. So I'll just use an example of a past client. So this was a civilian couple, he was from Mexico, she was from the States, he was in the medical community and they were having a child or they had a child. And so as a clinician, you know, as a counselor, educator, this is something we talk about and actually use this case study quite often with my students and I'm like okay, so they come into you. Whose culture is it? Right, you've got a Mexican culture, mexican Catholic. She was evangelical and you're mixing them together and okay, well, which is? And the reason that question is really, really important is because if you take the mexican culture, well then some of the enmeshment um, meaning the family is very, very close, they're in each other's business is a cultural dynamic, and so as a, as an american, I very much could sit back and be like, hey, you need to draw boundaries and now I'm messing with, maybe, what's normal and healthy for that culture, and so that cultural awareness is really important, and so this whole idea of cultural competency, multiculturalism, is really important when you start working with that individual. So now we can take that over to the soft and say, well, why is that important? Well, I mean just to speed up therapy.
Speaker 2:I've heard individuals say, hey, it took me five, six sessions just to educate my clinician on what my experiences were like in the soft community. So you know, we're, by being able to find clinicians that either come from soft or have a high cultural company in soft is one you know we've got at least some ability to understand some of the acronyms you guys have way too many. At least some ability to understand some of the acronyms, you guys have way too many. But one you can you know, hey, here's what my MOS was, or whatever, and like not skip a beat. Additionally, when you come in, like we know the deployment tempo from the different communities, because a lot of the clinicians have worked in the different communities or worked adjacent with some of those communities or come from those communities, and so again, we're removing barriers and we can get right down to Bratz hacks of like, hey, this is what's going on.
Speaker 2:Same thing, you know, when I sit down with a couple. If they tell me, hey, I'm retiring from a tier one unit and it's like check, like I already know. You just say that and I already know some of the stressors and experiences, that amount of years. I don't need to know some of the details at this point. Maybe if it comes up and it's pertinent for therapy, we may discuss them. But just that sentence. Whereas a typical clinician off the street, they may be great work, but the education and the time that it takes to catch them up to speed, I would argue it's going to take a lot longer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, that's so true. The cultural competency from place to place differs, and that's why it's so important to be able to tap into online clinicians. That's one of the things I realized. Like dude guys get really comfortable and they build a rapport with a doc, but then they get orders to go back to brag and it's like fuck a doc. But then they get orders to go back to brag and it's like fuck. I know, I experienced that myself. You build rapport with somebody that's heard your worst days and they provide you guidance and a way forward and then you got to move out of the area. How has being able to be online helped you continue helping your client base? And have you felt any sort of difficulty dealing with just the online business? Because it is different being able to sit and hold space with somebody in person versus doing this.
Speaker 2:So I'll I'll back up and go a little bit into my experience with that, but then also answer your question. So, um, I was completely against online therapy for for a long time, in person, in person, in person. Um, in 2019, 18, me and my wife, uh, through just different circumstances, we're moving from Wilmington to Tampa, and so we were shutting down our private practice and you know that was a bitter pill to swallow, because here, you know, like I mentioned before, the majority of my caseload were soft clinicians at the time or, excuse me, soft clients at the time, and I knew, okay, this is the people I want to work with and I'm basically having to start all over and I don't know anybody in Tampa. It's like you know again, what are you going to do? Go hang your shingle and say, hey, I work with saw like good luck, and then you're in a major metropolitan city like good luck.
Speaker 2:Um, again, divine intervention, the state of Florida lost my application and I found out to a grape vine a year later that that person was like a pissed off employee and like buried all the applications under their mattress or something. Anyways, um, it ended up being a blessing because once we moved down here, all my clients north camera like one more session, one more session. I was like, all right, I'll get into the online therapy, just to you know, get you a transition. And that was like in May, by fall, our license still hadn't come in and I was like, all right, we're just going to do the online thing. And so that was a big transition. So that was fall 2019. Well, fast forward, three months, four months, covid, right, so the whole world goes online. We just happened to be online ahead of everybody in our community, and so we were able to help a lot of our friends that were like, hey, how do you do this? What do you do All of that?
Speaker 2:I think one of the biggest hurdles that a lot of clinicians realize is I think your skills have to be better. I don't have any research to back this up, but I would argue. I think your skills have to be sharper and more on point when you're online, because you've got to bridge this, that you're not in the room with me, danny, right now, and I've got to do a really good job to make sure that you and I are staying connected, we're tracking and that whatever we're addressing is we're meeting the goal of that session. Where this actually is a benefit is everybody went online and realized, hey, we can do work online and so fast forward. I'm not sure if this started. I think it started right before COVID, but COVID just ramped it up. So the psychologist community specifically, has already rolled out what they call the SciPack. So if you're a licensed psychologist and your state participates in the PSYPAC, you can apply for it and it's a national license. So basically, you're licensed in 35 states to do telehealth work. You can't do in-person work, but you can do telehealth in 35 states. The counseling compact, I think, is up to like 25 or 26 states have passed legislation at state level and we're just waiting for our national license to roll. Same thing with social work, same thing with MFTs, american Family Therapists. So here shortly, the great thing about the telehealth, I would argue, is, you know, we may have in the next couple of years anywhere from 150 or let's just say 100, 150 clinicians, but we're going to be able to cover all 50 states, probably 10x. But we're going to be able to cover all 50 states, probably 10x. And so the ability to jump online will reduce barriers and I'll get back to a little bit more specificity.
Speaker 2:Going online has been probably one of the most impactful things at regular scheduling, regular therapy with people in the soft community, because, especially the active duty folks, it's like, hey, I'm out in the field today I'm instructing, yep, I can do it, and the wife can be at home with the kids, whereas before he had to have availability, she had to have had availability and the kids had to have a step Um and not just an hour, right, because depending upon where they're coming from, usually that's three hours.
Speaker 2:Maybe you know, 45 minutes in or doing an hour session and then 45 minutes back out. That's a huge burden, you know, every single week, and so now I've had clients that are in completely different locales, you know, and we can still make sure things are regular, and so that's been extremely helpful and I think it's going to continue to help the community again lower the barriers to therapy and, like you said, with your clinician I'm assuming with probably down here in Florida and you got orders go back and forth is here shortly. That clinician will probably have a national license and you know, if you wanted to, you could continue with that person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's. That's the beauty of being online, being connected. It's. I think it's the norm now. I think it more people. If you're not comfortable with it, just give it a shot. Give it a try and it opens up your ability to see individuals from outside the area. I know that there are great counselors everywhere, but maybe you log in, check out Dr Christopher Ostrander and you have a. You have a great rapport with him. Now you can be his client and you don't have to worry about being uh in the same location in Tampa. You can see him from Florida, from uh Northwest Florida, or you can see him from Fort Bragg. Um, doc, thank you for being here today. Thank you for what you you're doing. If people want to get a hold of you or they want to check out soft network, where can they go?
Speaker 2:yeah, so just that soft sof network org. We built the website to make it super easy so you can one. You can go into the clinical directory and there's a couple different things you can do. You can click on that clinical directory tab and you can just click clinical directory and they're listed alphabetical, not state, but just alphabetical, and you can look at all the short bios of all 85 clinicians in there. Or you can click by state, and so then it's alphabetical state and it's got all the clinicians in there, and when you click on their name it's going to take you to their individual provider page. And so if you're in North Carolina, go look at all the different providers in North Carolina, check out their page. On their page is their practice contact information.
Speaker 2:So if you want, you can reach out through the website and we'll get it. And then you can say, hey, you know, tell us what state you're in and if you want to use insurance and or if you'd like, you know, some benevolent support. If that's the case, then it's really easy for me, or whoever answers that email, to jump on there and say, okay, you're in Oklahoma and you want to use insurance? Okay, well, that narrows down to who you're going to work with and maybe that provider you know doesn't take insurance. But then we can, we can follow up with hey, we got you covered.
Speaker 2:But the other thing you can do is if you come from a specific community and you're like, hey, you know, I'm connected with the Greenberry Foundation and I've asked for therapy, then great, then they can reach out through us. Or you can reach out and say, hey, I've got funding, like I just need a clinician Awesome, that works as well. So really, it's ease of use. You don't have to talk to any of us. You can talk straight to the clinician and get on their schedule. If, for some reason, you know, they don't get back to you in a day or two, again, email us, email us, just contact me. Or and it's just chris at softnetworkorg. Or you can reach out through the website and say, hey, I reached out to you, know, providerx, and I hadn't respond. And you know I'll put it. I'll put you on an email together and they'll they'll answer it awesome that is.
Speaker 1:Uh, it's nice short and to the point. Don't have to jump through many hoops. That's what I like to see.
Speaker 2:Sorry go ahead.
Speaker 1:It's one of the things I've realized with guys. When they finally get to the point where they're like I'm going to reach for help. I've seen so many guys give up. If it takes too long, If your website literally has too many loops to jump through to freaking get connected, They'll be like oh, it's not worth it, Too many blockades, I'll give up. It's like dude.
Speaker 2:Well and this is something as a counselor educator I talk to my students all the time. So as a counselor educator, I have a mandate. I have to answer all my emails within 36 hours, like, or else, you know, I get somebody pumping my nose. What I've noticed in my business over the last 10 years is the same thing Counselors that respond and are responsive, you're just going to get more clients by the sheer nature of you're the first person You'll hear that often, like you're the first person to answer the email. And so one of the things that I know specifically about the first responder community, but also the SOC community and just the military in general, is it's a crime that you guys are trained and taught like move towards whatever with speed. Right, I mean like move towards the problem with speed. And as a counselor educator it's something I'm just pounding into my students' head is you should move towards your clients with speed when they first reach out.
Speaker 2:I think it's respectful, I think it's a professional thing to do, but, most specifically in this community, when, like you said, they get out, that's half the battle. It's just they're used to working in teams, highly effective teams, where people are moving quickly to solve the problem. And then they get out and they're told hey, go wait in the line or go check in at your local VA Not actually all VAs they're great friends that work as the VA, but there's hiccups there, and so we're trying to create an organization that moves as quickly or as close to as quickly as you guys move, because you guys deserve that and your families deserve that, and you know, as professionals, we should be demonstrating that type of um communication and desire to work with y'all, and so this is something that I'm really passionate about. I can't control all their clinicians. Some some of them are a little bit slow, but that's why I say if they don't respond, email me, I'll light a fire underneath them, because I want you guys to get connected as soon as possible.
Speaker 2:And yes, I was just um. Actually, last week I was out hunting with my brother in wyoming and a guy reached out and it was the same thing, you know. I responded. He was like the first person responded um, this is so fast. I'm just like it should be. You shouldn't be waiting. The fact that it's 2024, about to be 2025, and we have people waiting a week to hear back from a professional that's insane.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's absolutely true, and that's why what you're doing matters, and it's a resource that needs to be celebrated and brought out to every trade show, conference, every event where we can get guys and gals from the community whether it's active duty or veterans because they need to realize that there are people out there that care, there are providers they can get in touch with at a moment's notice and start getting treatment today. Don't put it off. If you're listening and you're on the fence, just give it a try. It's just literally talking to another human being and processing through some of the stuff that you've gone through, and the hope is to understand it, to unpack it and move forward so you can continue on your career or continue on what you're doing in life as a better, well-adjusted individual. To everybody listening, thank you for tuning in, doc, thank you for being in, doc, thank you for being here and for what you're doing, and we'll see you all next time. Until then, take care.
Speaker 1:Thanks for tuning in and don't forget to like, follow, share, subscribe and review us on your favorite podcast platform. If you want to support us, head on over to buymeacoffeecom forward slash set called podcast and buy us a coffee. Connect with us on Instagram X or TikTok and share your and remember we get through this together. If you're still listening, the episode's over. Yeah, there's no more Tune in tomorrow or next week. Thank you.
