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#217 The Black Box Project: Analyzing Data for Suicide Prevention
In this compelling episode, Kim Burditt opens up about her deeply personal journey through suicide loss and how it fueled her commitment to suicide prevention, especially among military and veteran communities. She shares the vital role of peer support in healing and finding renewed purpose after devastating loss. The conversation delves into the complex nature of grief, highlighting the importance of allowing individuals the space to navigate their unique grieving process. Emphasizing the healing potential of alternative therapies, such as art and music therapy, the episode sheds light on the evolving understanding of grief as a natural human experience. Kim’s story reinforces that pain and suffering, while profound, will gradually ease with time. A spotlight is placed on the Black Box Project, an innovative initiative by Stop Soldier Suicide, which analyzes digital data from service members lost to suicide to uncover behavioral trends. This project aims to improve interventions and provide targeted support to those at risk. The episode concludes with a powerful message of hope, underscoring the significance of seeking help and standing together to prevent future loss.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Personal Story
02:05 The Impact of Suicide Loss
07:24 Post-Traumatic Growth and Finding Meaning
10:13 Navigating the Complexities of Grief
14:10 Allowing Yourself to Feel and Process Grief
17:46 Grief as a Connection and a Privilege
24:38 Intentional Work and Navigating the Waves of Grief
26:21 Embracing Grief and Understanding its Nature
32:10 The Black Box Project: Analyzing Data for Suicide Prevention
48:23 Seeking Help and Supporting One Another in the Fight Against Suicide
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Website: stopsoldiersuicide.org/blackboxproject
Email: kim.burditt@stopsoldiersuicide.org
Produced by Security Halt Media
Welcome back to the Security Hub Podcast. Dispose of enemy personnel to kill period.
Speaker 1:With my attrition, welcome back to secure that podcast. With me today is kim burdett from uh stop soldier suicide and, more importantly, from her own project, black box project. Uh kim, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Thank you for being here today hey, denny, thanks so much for having me Appreciate it.
Speaker 1:So it's on top of everybody's mind, especially coming off of fighting season. We've lost the majority of our friends in that glorious forever summer, like we like to call, in both Iraq and Afghanistan. So of course, we have to talk about suicide today, and I'd like you to kick it off by telling us your own story.
Speaker 2:Thanks, danny. I wish it wasn't my story right. If I could go back and change it I sure would. But my first exposure to the world of suicide came when my own brother, who was a Marine Corps veteran, died by suicide in April of 2010. John, his name was John J-O-N. He was my only sibling, he was almost 11 years younger than me and it was relatively out of the blue for us. So he had been out of the Marines for six years. He never was deployed, he never saw combat and he was a homebody. He was an introvert, he was a. He was a homebody, he was an introvert. He was a real sweet, kind soul.
Speaker 2:Um, when he saw, when he joined the marines, we were all shocked because we thought the military was going to be a great option for him. Um, we were thinking my dad was an air force vet so we were thinking maybe he'd do air force navy something, something, even Coast Guard, and when he signed with the Marines it just didn't sort of fit his personality. We were kind of surprised but thrilled when he died by suicide. Like I said, it was relatively out of the blue for us, even honestly, knowing what I know now working in this field for the last 12 and a half years, knowing what I know now about warning signs and risk factors, he really didn't show that many warning signs, you know. I mean even on the look back. But when he died at the time I live in Southern New Hampshire Now I was living in Massachusetts close to my parents. He was in Massachusetts and Massachusetts is fairly resource rich in terms of their statewide suicide prevention budget and a good chunk of that is for postvention care, which is care for those who are impacted by a suicide loss, and that made a remarkable difference because we didn't know anyone who had experienced a loss like this. We didn't know what to do. You know, you're sort of thrust into this wilderness of grief. I mean, everyone has lost someone that they've loved. Right Along the line people die, right. This is a very unique type of grief. I would never say it's more or less difficult than any other type of sudden or traumatic loss. I don't know that to be true and I don't want to know. But it's definitely more complicated, there's more layers to it and we, like I said, we're thrust into this wilderness no compass, no map, no idea what to do. But those resources we were connected to in the state had. You know, the majority of that was peer support. So, you know, connecting to other people who had experienced this loss. And what's so wonderful about peer support is that it, you know, it validates your experience. You know you're not the only one. This just can feel so isolating.
Speaker 2:Very shortly after John died, I had the sense that I was going to do something with this. I did not know what it was. My background at the time, my kids were little, so I was home, I was working part time, I was raising my kids, my background was in marketing and graphic design and you know, a hundred years ago, and I, um, I had no idea what, what it would look like, but I knew I needed to make space in my life to do whatever. You know, whatever was going to happen with this. I knew that you know, that day change everything. So, fast forward about a year, I had an opportunity to get a part-time job working for one of those organizations that provided that peer support that my family had engaged with, and so I worked for them for about a year and a half doing some statewide trainings in suicide prevention for a very specific population, for gatekeepers of older adults, because back then, older adults were the. It was the largest suicide rate in the state and also in the country, not the suicide number but the suicide rate. So there was funding and there was, you know.
Speaker 2:So I was going around doing some trainings and then I had an opportunity to, through some volunteer work, I was exposed to an organization that provided specific support to military and veteran families who had lost their loved one to suicide, and I worked for that organization. It was called TAPS. Some people may have heard of it the Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors. I worked for them for almost 10 years and specifically worked with, again, families who were impacted by suicide. What was unique about that is that a lot not all, but many of the staff at TAPS were like me, were survivors who wanted to impact the field somehow, who wanted to work in the field somehow, and being surrounded by people who are grieving their own loss, and actively grieving right, because we don't ever really stop grieving that loss right. Yet also, you know professionally and you know shoring up their professional experience with education, working in the field, making an impact in the field, becoming thought leaders in the field that was.
Speaker 2:I was so incredibly fortunate to be exposed to all that and therefore exposed to, you know, some of the leading experts in the grief field in, you know, in suicidology that's actually a word and was able to, you know, to sort of set my sights on. Okay, this is the work that I want to do and right alongside, like I said, you're also grieving right. You're always in your sort of grief journey because life is just going to keep on lifing right and every bit of it, you know, as my kids get older and graduate and graduate college and, you know, get met, my brother is not a part of any of that right, doesn't have an opportunity to be a part of any of that. So life keeps happening and I was exposed to these people who were not only surviving after their own you know, traumatic, horrible suicide loss, but even thriving, and that led to a, you know, a search for me Once I had heard the term I had never heard of it before but post-traumatic growth.
Speaker 2:I did not witness or find my brother when he died. He died at home. My dad found him. My dad absolutely had some trauma around that and the effects of that. I did not, but my imagination was enough and so you know, I I would never liken it to my dad's experience, but you know, and again I think I had my own little touch of of trauma around that and the loss I think is traumatic.
Speaker 2:And you know, again, being surrounded by these people, I, I came to identify, okay, that's post-traumatic growth Like they are. You know, there's, there's, if you, if you read about definitions of post-traumatic growth, it talks about things like finding making purpose and meaning after the loss, um, experiencing a deeper appreciation for, for life, for the people in your life, for the relationships you have. Um, you just value things a little bit differently, um, for life, for the people in your life, for the relationships you have. You just value things a little bit differently. You know people will say the phrase oh, you know, sophie didn't die in vain, it's, that's in the neighborhood, but it's not quite deep enough.
Speaker 2:And once I learned about post-traumatic growth, you know I was, I, I really I understood like, okay, I have been fortunate enough to experience that, not because I intentionally set out on it, I had never heard of that phrase, but, um, you know, was able to to experience that because of who I've been exposed to, who I've been fortunate enough to sponge up knowledge from and learn along the way, and some of the choices that you know, by the grace of God, honestly worked out um the way that they did. So I knew that this would be my lifetime's work. It would maybe look a little bit different depending on where I am and how I'm able to do that, but working with suicide loss survivors, ideally in the military veteran space, is really where my heart is, and that's really what has led me to the position that I'm in right now, which is really unique, um, and I'm really fortunate to to get to do that. So, um, can I share about that now, denny, or do you?
Speaker 1:have any questions or okay, okay. No, we'll keep you on the roll, um, but I do want to interject real quick and kind of like slow the train down, like it's important to highlight that none of this growth happens overnight. None of this happens within a week or two weeks.
Speaker 2:Absolutely not Years.
Speaker 1:Grief is a dance. It's something that you pick up, you work through and if you're if you're listening and you're a veteran, you probably can recall the chaplain five steps very linear, very fast. You start and you drop and you move on. But if you've lost somebody in combat, if you lost somebody at home, if you lost a family member, you understand that grief does not follow a linear path. What I was referring to earlier in the intro is the perfect summer. All of us at some point wanted and chase that deployment. We chase that adrenaline rush of going on trip. We looked forward to it every summer, or even when you went on those winter trips. You're like man. I hope I get a little bit of that fighting season and I want you to pause. I want you to reflect right now as we're coming through this summer of 2024.
Speaker 1:Did you experience any memories or any feelings of depression? Did you experience any days where you're just feeling a little heavier than normal? That's a little sign that you're still dealing with that grief. You're remembering. Your body holds on to that memory. It's no joke why I say like, hey, when summer comes, reach out to your friends. You've been on those rotations over and over and over again and I didn't understand it. I wasn't intuitive of it, but you look on your phone, you look at your calendar and you remember oh, we lost that this day. We lost Jose this day. This is why I'm feeling this way, even though we don't want to pick it up and hold it.
Speaker 1:When you pause and you reflect, you can understand. There's a powerful connection that you still have grief to work through. Maybe it's not as encompassing and overbearing as a full depressive state. Maybe it's just a day where you're feeling a little bit low. That's a sign for you to reach out to your brothers. I know there's a lot of guys that can't do the memorial ceremonies. There's a lot of guys that can't do the memorial workout, and that's okay. In time, if you can, you will be able to do those things.
Speaker 1:Everybody has to move at their own pace. There is no plan of action for every human being to follow through for grief and loss. There's guides, there's great books out there, but at the end of the day, your speed is your speed and oftentimes, when we hear these powerful testimonies of being of service again, of being able to take your pain and your trauma and do something great with it. We immediately want to jump at that. I know. When I first got better and I started walking and crawling and understood what I was going through, I wanted to hurry up and try to bring everybody in on this journey. But you need to focus on you. You need to focus on your healing, your journey, first. Just like my good friend Terry said the other day, if you are constantly operating on an empty or half-filled cup, you're not doing anybody any service and it's important to understand that. When Kim highlights her journey, it's not as easy and as fast as a day or two. Those are years. It's not as easy and as fast as a day or two, those are years.
Speaker 2:Oh wouldn't, don't we wish, though, right when you, when you mentioned the five steps, were you referring to um sort of the five stages of grief?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So what's interesting about that is I was fortunate enough to be mentored by someone who was good friends with Elizabeth Kuba Ross. She wrote that for people who are dying, not people who have lost someone.
Speaker 1:So that and it's even advanced, it's changed over the years. It has.
Speaker 2:And I love that you brought that up, because I think it creates a really it's a really hard expectation for people in grief, right, because, okay, I do this, I do, now, I'm supposed to do this and feel this and feel this, and then I'm better. It doesn't work that way, and not everyone feels all of those things, and certainly not in that order, so it creates this sort of unreachable expectation, and then we think we're doing it wrong, when in reality, um, if you're not hurting yourself and you're not hurting anybody else, there's no wrong in grief. You need to feel what you need to feel. Um, grief is made, is meant to be felt, right, it's an it's it, it has to be. I think the only way to process it is it's an inside job. You've gotta. You've gotta do it.
Speaker 2:The interesting thing, though, is it'll wait for you. It'll be a gentleman, right, it will wait, maybe on the back shelf in the closet if you need it to, and sometimes you do. You know, sometimes you need to kind of tuck it away because we're in the middle of a mission or in the middle of raising a six-month-old, or you know, whatever it is. We might need to tuck it away for a minute for survival purposes, and that's okay. Tuck it away for a minute for survival purposes, and that's okay.
Speaker 2:The good thing I guess good about it is you can, even if you know all of the quote, memorial ceremonies, all of that has passed or all of that has happened, you can still do something meaningful for you. You can, you know, do something meaningful. It doesn't have to be what everyone else is doing, it doesn't have to be the big thing on social media, it doesn't have to. You know, whatever connects you to that person and that memory, you can do that, and that that is growth and healing for you and your grief journey, cause it's all personal, it's all individual.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I had a great senior leader that once said after an unfortunate event is grief is a luxury that we do not have right now, meaning, yeah, this moment sucks, this moment in time sucks, and you're not going to be afforded the time to reflect on it. And you can cry and by all means feel it, but at the end of the day, when you were on a deployment, when you were on a mission, you didn't have time for that Right, and that's why so many guys and gals on the backside they're grieving not only the loss of a military career, a mission and a purpose that they thought was going to be the entirety of their life, but also every single loss.
Speaker 1:They experienced along the way, and that's okay. You just have to understand that you're a human being as much as you. And again, it's crazy how many individuals feel grief as a foreign entity. And I saw it firsthand at a funeral ceremony, sitting next to a great friend of mine who finally, like we're sitting here mourning the loss of a friend and he finally starts crying and he's like I don't know what this pain is, I have zero concept of it, and that was that. That's one of the the most insane moments here we have. We have a guy that spent a career in the military, a MARSOC raider, and he's just now coming to the understanding of what grief and pain is. And so many of us are out there. You don't have to be a military veteran, you don't have to be a first responder. You're just a human being. All of us can experience this and there's no concrete guidebook. You just have to be able to feel it and go through it.
Speaker 2:We are a very grief avoidance society, right. We just, you know, sort of we don't, we don't do difficult emotions and especially that one Um. But one of the things that I learned along the way, along my journey, um, is to reframe it. Right, think about it Grief is a privilege, honestly, because this is going to sound harsh, sound harsh, um, someone somewhere today is going to be in a horrific accident and die on a freeway. If I don't know them, I'm can I be sad about it. Sure, can I feel for you know, you know sorry for that, sorry for their family. But that's not grief. I'm not grieving them.
Speaker 2:We only grieve people that we love, and I don don't only mean, you know, family love or romantic love. We only grieve people that we have that human connection to. So when you reframe that, that grief is love. We are not a love avoidant society, right. Love's great, you know, we have all sorts of holidays that celebrate that. But when you reframe, you know that grief is is that connection to that person, because they mattered. Of course we're going to grieve, of course we are. It's not a negative emotion, it's a positive. I mean, of course we are and of course we are for longer than three days that maybe you know our corporate job gives us to plan the funeral and be done Right and be back to normal. Uh-uh, I mean, you know grief affects us spiritually, cognitively, physically. We physically feel. I mean the emotions of grief release hormones in our bodies that affect our muscles. If you feel it, it's because you're feeling it. You physically feel it.
Speaker 1:Um it's a crazy thing to think and reflect on somewhere along the line evolutionary. This was instilled in us as a species. This was, this is an essential part of being a human being. Yes, so just wrap your head around that. Just understand somewhere in infinite wisdom of our great and powerful creator. Somewhere along the line. It was meant for us to have this experience.
Speaker 2:We're supposed to.
Speaker 1:We're supposed to do it. Just like you breathe, just like you feel love and you feel connection to your kids, your loved ones, you're meant to grieve. It's part of something that was developed within us as a species. It's part of us. Animals do it, yeah, and the thing is like the more you understand that it's a natural thing, the more you feel at ease, understanding that you're not going through something alien. You're not only allow those feelings, but maybe even express it outwardly a little bit.
Speaker 2:It's amazing how others will respond because you've just sort of signaled that I'm okay to talk about this, I'm a safe person to talk about this, I'm going to be authentic about it, because I know you're feeling it too at some point. But we can be real about this and then the floodgates will open, that you know, because you've you've given that signal that I'm I'm real about this. I'm not going to, you know, and other people are just drawn to that. And because it's it's all about the human connection, right, it's all about that, like you said, it's that I had never really thought of it that way, that evolutionary, like we're supposed to feel this, right, we are, it is, it's part of who we were built to be. So, and and again, if you love someone, if that person has that a special place in your, in your life, in your experience, and again, it's not, you know, it doesn't always have to be romantic love or familial love, but of course you're going to have that feeling.
Speaker 2:Of course you are, and it doesn't go away in a month. It just can't. It can't. You can't just flip the switch right. We want to, because it's painful right Over time. I do not believe that time heals all wounds. I think that's kind of a load of crap. But I think that what time does is it changes things right. It gives you perspective, it gives you opportunity to learn, to pause, to feel, and you know the story didn't happen. The fact is the fact. But you're the one that that changes right, and that's you know so much along my grief journey.
Speaker 2:For me, knowledge was power. The more I learned, the more I learned about suicide loss, the more I learned about, you know, sort of suicidal ideation and behavior and, um, and you know, that allowed me to think about my brother's perspective, to think about my parents' perspective, you know, to learn more about sibling loss. And for me that knowledge was like I said, it felt empowering because it was just such a foreign. We just didn't understand it. We had no point of reference for it. So for me, not everyone is like that, right, not everyone can.
Speaker 2:I wanted to read everything I could the summer after my brother died. My mom couldn't, you know, her attention span just wasn't there. So, um, at the time, right and to your point, everyone is going to do it a little bit, a little bit differently. And I think, if you can be open to allowing yourself to, to, you know, to do that, to allow yourself to feel, allow yourself to try something that maybe it doesn't feel like you normally, you know, um, but it might help. I had someone suggest art therapy. Um, I can be creative. I am not an artist, I'm. I can't draw a stick figure.
Speaker 1:And someone said, I will say I will say um music therapy, art therapy are amazing modalities. Say, um music therapy, art therapy are amazing modalities. And if you feel an aversion, if you feel a big, I did, I didn't want to do that. Yeah, I didn't want to do any of that. That wasn't me, I'm like I don't, I can't do that I'm not an artist, I can't do this, I don't.
Speaker 2:I'm telling you how's that gonna help you'd be?
Speaker 1:surprised what's happening in the different parts of your brain when you're going through and then not just grief All my experience. I talk and share it openly. I went to a mental health treatment center shout out to Louravage. It completely saved my life. And one of the things that you have to do there is you have to surrender and give away that control and be willing to try everything. Be open, yeah, and be open to try everything. And be open to try everything. And one of the things that you will understand if you continue to dive into the research and continue diving into the books is when you tap into different parts of your brain, you allow for yourself to process things that you aren't normally willing to talk or speak about with your therapist, and you'd be surprised. There's a reason why people go to school and get these certifications and become art therapists, music therapists. There's efficacy to it, it works. So be willing to try anything, whether it's for grief or mental health, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work for you. But there's so many tools.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I think it's important to to think, okay, I mean, especially with my experience with grief, it it may not work now, but maybe in six months, I don't know, maybe, you know, I mean, maybe I'll try it again or maybe maybe I'll be in a different place then, right. So I think you know to your point to be open to experiencing and give it a try and if it, if it doesn't feel like it helps right now, you haven't lost anything, right, you know I mean no, no, worse for the wear, because it didn't hurt, it's certainly not going to hurt, it's not going to make it worse. Um, you know, and many times it feels like it can't get worse, okay, well, if it can't get worse, then it can get better, right, then, you know that opens up the space for that. So it is certainly a journey. I'm glad that you highlighted that because it, you know, now 14, almost 15 years out, next spring it'll be 15 years out.
Speaker 2:You know, it does seem a little bit like a blur, but you know, looking back in that rear view mirror, it was work. You know, it really was, and some of it, once again, once I learned, I knew pieces of that had to be intentional. You know I have to. I have to allow space for this to heal from it. Right, you have to feel it to heal it. You know when people would say that it would drive me nuts.
Speaker 1:But um, two zero. Shout out to them. That's your tag. Great organization love plugging them. Uh. So yeah, quick shout out to 22 zero. That's her tag. Great organization, love plugging them. Uh. So yeah, quick shout out to 22 zero. That's, that's their tagline they use. You got to feel it to heal it. Yeah, and if you need to help right now, go right there. I'm gonna put it on YouTube at 22 zero. There you go. Shout out to Dr Pamela Amazing lady, great healer.
Speaker 2:Um, I didn't know what that meant, though. Right, Like I thought. I thought I am feeling it, right, Well, I'm, I was feeling the pain, but I wasn't. You know, I don't think I was doing the intentional work of grief right, Allowing the processing, allowing you know to, to talk about the things, to allow the space to feel it intentionally and not just kind of sit in the pain while trying to ignore it. Right, If that kind of makes sense.
Speaker 2:Um, I think, the longer you know, I I liken it to, I love um analogies. If you think about and I live on the East coast, so, um, if you think about the ocean and if you think about an ocean wave, right, and, and many, many lost survivors will call it, you know people a grief wave, but if no one has really ever tried this, because we know we can't do it, but if you think about an ocean wave coming up on the beach, you cannot hold that back. You can't, you physically cannot hold it back. We want to, right, we don't want to feel what this wave is bringing. We don't want to. The energy you would exert to hold that back is and you can't. It's, it's coming anyway.
Speaker 2:The fear is is that we don't know if that wave is gonna, you know, just kind of come up to our ankles, if it's going to splash our legs, if it's going to take us out at the knees, right, I think the key is is learning how you can sort of ride that wave, surf it, what you know, whatever analogy you want to use, but that to not necessarily fear the wave. And again, if we're supposed to feel grief because of love and human connection, then it's really not scary, right yeah? The other thing about an ocean wave is, by nature, they come up on the beach and they receive. It's not forever, it's, you know, it's, it's a feeling dissipates, everything dissipates.
Speaker 1:It's a great thing that it does. Mindfulness brought into my life is understanding that, no matter what emotion, no matter what suffering you're going through, um, and I, I use it with my students, man Like. I taught mindfulness to the kids for a while and one of the best lessons is like you ever hit your elbow, you ever hit your funny bone. Yeah, it hurts really bad. Yeah, how long does it last? How long?
Speaker 2:When I think about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Everything dissipates.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:Everything dissipates, yeah. And when we think of pain, whether it's physical or emotional like yeah it, or emotional, like yeah it ebb and flows, man. Good days, bad days, and that's something to take with you wherever you go, wherever you're on your journey right now. You have good days, you have bad days, you have days of dealing with that grief and dancing with it non-stop. And then you wake up, feel a little better, go a little better, and the key to it is continuing not to push it away, but embrace it and let it know that, hey, this is something I'm going through. I'm choosing to look at it, stare it in the face, understand it. I know it's going to be okay, like whether it's having memories from friends you lost down range or intimate family members that you've lost.
Speaker 1:Um, suicide is not something that one goes over and just smooths over in one day. It's something that will stick with you. Good friends, family members. That's hard, but understand that with time and with your own progress and your own focus on it and with assistance, you don't have to do it alone. That's a great thing. You don't have to go this road alone. You can get help to make that pain instead of carrying that 135 pound rucksack on your back. Maybe you whittle it down to just 50 pounds and you can deal with that a little better. Yeah, um, I want to dive into your black box project because this is something that, um, when I think of it.
Speaker 2:It makes sense, but I'm cautious and have I learned of the Black Box Project? And I, quite frankly, was hell, no, no, like no. It's an invasion of privacy. It is to your point. They're not here to sort of defend themselves. What are we looking for? And, by the way, what is going to be found in that digital device? It's not going to give me the answer. Right, it's not. It's one piece of a person's life, right, it's just one little puzzle of the entire. So I hear you, I hear you on that.
Speaker 2:I kept abreast of it, though, because it was fascinating to me, and then pieces fell into place and there was a spot for me here, and I learned more about their and I when I say they, I mean stop soldier suicide as an organization, their perspective, their approach and what they want to do with it and how they are valuing and honoring that data. So that came through loud and clear to me, and that's what changed some of my, my understandings of um. But I should back up just in case people are not aware. So, stop soldier, suicide is an organization. We provide free, confidential tele-mental healthcare. So you know virtual health, mental healthcare, um care to anyone who's ever worn a uniform for a day, regardless of discharge, regardless active duty, or veteran for people who are moderate to high risk for suicide, so those people who are really struggling. This is not PTSD treatment, it's not depression or substance use treatment, not long term treatment. It's for, you know, the acute people who are really struggling. The name of that service, although the organization is Stop Soldier Suicide, we service, all you know, anyone who's ever served in any branch. We were founded by three Army vets, so hence the name. But the name of our wellness operations that's what it's called is called Roger, so the website for that is go rogerorg Um, and you can learn lots and lots more about that and I can answer more questions about that. But as an organization, stop soldier suicide is extremely focused on data and technology, meaning let's leverage the best technology out there, let's learn what we can to better our services so we can provide better care. We can better understand why people get to this place where they're really, really struggling and at high risk for suicide, and how do we better care for them. That's sort of where the nexus of Black Box Project came from. So if you think about the context of aviation, right, we understand what a black box is in aviation.
Speaker 2:In this instance, the black box is people's personal devices, right so their cell phones, their tablets and even their laptops. What the project does is we borrow. It is always a borrow we do not keep. We borrow digital devices of service members and service members, active duty service members and veterans who have died by suicide. We borrow them from their surviving family members. We copy the data that's on those devices. We do not connect them to the internet. We don't log into any apps. We essentially take a snapshot of what's on that device. Immediately. It is depersonalized and de-identified and then all of the device data that we've collected thus far is pooled and that data is analyzed. So we don't look at John Smith's device and look for why did he die by suicide? We don't. We don't analyze any one single you know through that lens. What happens is the data gets pooled and analyzed that way and we're looking for behavioral trends and patterns that you know.
Speaker 2:Then, once we identify those, the thought is, the desire is that we eventually can build interventions to go, you know to, to get in there digitally, right, and so it's digital life. So, um, as an example, if you're a gamer, um, and you're a veteran. You may have seen an ad um in the games um for stop soldier suicide, because we spend a good amount of our marketing budget. We want to go to where struggling people are. We're not waiting for them to call us, we're going to go where they are. We're going to go to the places that they are, again, digitally right. So if the Black Box project, if all of our device data shows that in the majority of people that we've you know the device data the majority of those individuals were their device was active overnight, we know they're not sleeping right If their device is active and it's, and we know that they are up overnight. And again, in the field of suicide prevention, that's not something new. We know that people who are struggling have a hard time sleeping, but that's, you know. That gives us the case for okay, now we know, now let's add additional spending on our ads to go, you know, in the middle of the night, let's go to those places where they are so that we can better reach them and better get in front of them before the crisis point.
Speaker 2:So that's just a sort of a quick little summary, but I, my role in the black box project is to engage with families and to share the project with them, to you know, help them understand the ins and outs of it, to answer any questions, to see if it's something that they want to participate in. And again, it's a loan. The devices go back to them as we have received them. Many times it's not an exact science, so I always want to set proper expectations, but many times we are able to unlock locked devices and that can be attractive for families, right, because there's maybe pictures or videos or you know in there that they would like access to.
Speaker 2:To your point earlier, we know there are could potentially be some things in there that are not going to be helpful to the survivor, right, I mean, and that's, and that's literally how I phrase it to them. And I will say to them look, if, if your device is locked and we're able to unlock it and we send it back to you unlocked, just you know, just know this may not, may not apply for you know, for you and your loved one, but we've seen it happen and I just want you to you know, to kind of be aware that there may be some things in there that you would learn if you're going through the phone after the you know that you didn't know and they may not be helpful. So, you know, just sit with a trusted person, sit with, uh, you know someone that you a support person who can help you kind of go through those things. Um, because you know we've, if you can imagine a scenario I've probably heard it um, you know where the info on that that device showed. You know, maybe an addiction, that addiction that the family members didn't know about, or all sorts of things. And, yes, the person that has died is not there to defend themselves through that.
Speaker 2:And this may sound a little, a little odd. My concern is more with the survivors. Right Is to, you know, to support them in that you know this can be really hurtful and it and it can not be helpful for your grief journey, right, okay, so you learned this, but it's, it's, it's done and over with, it's not. You know that is a part of that person's past and that person has died, so it's not. But, um, you know it, it it can be hard, it can be hard for them and, like I said, I always want to level, set those expectations and and share that with them. And, you know, cause it. It is a, you know it's a possibility. Um, it doesn't happen often. Honestly, it truly does not. But but we want, you know, we want to make sure that they know that that potential exists right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Gathering metrics and analytics from a device, I mean from a targeting standpoint, from the old SF days, I mean that's viable information that you could use for so many things. But, other than understanding where to place ads and where to target individuals, what else are you able to gather from this information, from all this data?
Speaker 2:So the initial, I should say this project is in the world of projects and, by the way, I have not used the term research because we are not a research study at this point. This is an internal initiative that we are using, you know, within our own organization. In the future, will that change? Will we, you know, work with a, you know, a grad school for, uh, you know, to help us analyze and mine the data more? I don't know, um, but right now, but we're less than three years old, so it's pretty, it's, you know, it's still in its infancy. We are looking at, so some of the things that we looked at in our very first round, and it was a very small sample, so I think it was 19 cell phones worth of data that we looked at, but that was over 600,000 text messages, right, and we were working with Amazon Web Services. We had to teach them.
Speaker 2:We were looking at sentiment, so changes in sentiment in the six months before a device went inactive, right, or the you know the date of death. So we were looking at changes in sentiment and you think about and this is a little bit probably above my tech understanding or it's a little bit beyond, you know, but you think about, you know, changes in sentiment in terms of either you know more perhaps self depreciating language. We were looking at that. We were looking at expressions of anger, um, and, by the way, we had to teach Amazon web services that you know some choice curse words are probably they don't come with the same um weight or the same. You know some choice curse words are probably they don't come with the same weight or the same. You know expression of anger, or you know that maybe they do in the civilian world. So we had to teach Amazon Web Services. But you know, if you look at those things and if you're able to identify those trends, right? So this is, this is all my little fantasy, my supposing of what we could do with this, right, Say, I don't know, five years from now, what we've learned from this data.
Speaker 2:We have, then, developed an app that, when we are providing treatment to someone, with their full understanding and consent, they download this app onto their phone. That's a way for them to keep in touch with their clinician here and, you know to, to engage with us, in treatment with us. Maybe we're not monitoring exactly what they're doing on their device, but we're monitoring. But there is something in that app that monitors a change in sentiment and we can tell it whether it's a negative change or, you know, we could tell it to alert if it's a negative change or a positive change. Maybe that outcome is what's reported back to their clinician and that could make the difference in, you know, today's Wednesday. Maybe I'm I'm the veteran, I don't have an appointment until next Wednesday, but my clinician has been alerted that there's been a change in my sentiment and it and you know or change in something that indicates increased risk. Based on the data that we've learned, that clinician's not going to wait till next Wednesday. They're going to reach out sooner, right they're?
Speaker 1:going to. If you had, if you had access to every Green Beret and Navy, SEAL and Ranger cell phone looking for a change in sentiment, you would be horrified at the way that we communicate with each other. This is the one thing I will tell you right now.
Speaker 1:That would not work with our soft professionals or a vast majority of our infantry and paratroopers, because the way that we communicate is so. So, oh my gosh, the things that I have said and continue to say to my brothers and sisters, it's, it's uh, it's a it's very different and that that's my pushback, because when I was in in my, in the depths of my struggles with suicide and suicide ideation, there was no text message that you could see, that was out of line and out of character, and the mask was on 24 7, the only the only thing that had any like, the only. If you could see inside my head, you could hear the, the inner workings of the intrusive thoughts, and but everything, everything was through a layer of sarcasm, dark humor and the way that we communicate and that's my pushback with this and gather the analytics and this information is. This may work within a civilian sector, but I will say for our, even our first responders, I've heard so many times where, like we're the same, we talk the same way.
Speaker 1:It's so difficult to try to look at the way we're communicating and try to decipher it for like, oh, there's a signal here, because I will tell you the friends that I've lost and the people that I know that have lost friends in service. There was never. It was always individuals. They're like that's the pillar of strength, that's my dude, he'll never leave us just like that. So you look back at every communication and it's never changed. It's yeah, man, I got you whatever you need. And it's those stories of like dude, we were supposed to go fishing, we were supposed to go fishing, we were supposed to go out, and there was no change in sentiment, no change in communication, because the mask stays on 24, seven, every way you communicate, emails, everything, and that's, that's the only challenge I see, that's the only thing that I say. That you're going to have a, I would say, is a hard thing to look through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean with, and I and I don't disagree with the sentiment as an example, right, I think that you know, and especially with your brothers and sisters, you know, I mean side by side, yes, I think you're going to maintain, but there's even I think that's our point for why we need more data, right, because there is even and this is in the civilian world and I don't have this statistic off the top of my head, but there it's it's a known correlation between those who have to sort of maintain perfection and the pressure of that and how that can be indicative of a struggle right Behind that that you know, need to to show that mask all the time, to keep that mask on. Um, the interesting thing about you know versus so in the in the world of suicide postvention, um, there is something called a psychological autopsy where you know, um, back when I worked at tapsAPS, you know, there were some of the branches. We, you know, had contracts with some of the individual branches to do psych autopsies with our surviving families, and a psych autopsy is just what it sounds like. You talk to a bunch of different people in that you know, then the person who's died life to try to, you know, get all the different perspectives, talk to you know some of their co-workers talk to their family, talk to their, and to get all those perspectives and put together those puzzle pieces, the, the.
Speaker 2:The challenge with that is that it's inherently biased, right Cause it's through a human right and it's through that relationship. Your relationship for lack of a better description with your cell phone is first person, right. It's first person data, right, it's. It's you, um, if you are. You know if, if a change in your behavior, in your digital life, be it, you know, whatever that might be, phone activity sentiment, um, starting and not finishing, you know what could be interpreted as a suicide note. You know we've seen that fairly often. And then it gets deleted, um, like lots of computers. You know we've seen that fairly often. And then it gets deleted Like lots of computers. You know there's little hard drives and delete really doesn't mean delete, right? But to your point, you know this is just one piece, right, this is one piece of a person's entire persona, right? Just, the novelness of this is that you know no one's really looking at this.
Speaker 2:It's one approach we know as an organization to truly attack and impact the problem of active duty and veteran suicide, our model of, you know, of clinical care. We'd have to scale that to a point that is just so unsustainable, like financially and, you know, like the VA can't do it. Why would we think we can do it? But it can't be scaled to actually address the issue. And, by the way, how?
Speaker 2:What's the percentage of of veterans who are dying by suicide that aren't engaged in clinical care or treatment at all? What about them? We need to find them. You know, the ones who aren't asking for help, the ones who aren't there. You know we need to. Yes, the ones who are getting care and treatment. However, they're getting it great, because you know help does help. But what about the others? You know we can't. We need to find a way to to get to them too. So you know this is not. You know this is not the end. All be all right, we don't think this is going to solve the problem.
Speaker 2:It's an additional way, it's one other way to to approach this through a different perspective, to gather more data, to find out. You know, how can we, how can we, what can we learn and how can we create something that will, that will get in there Right, and you know, and intervene literally before the point of of no return. One of the things I think that is that is, I mean, you know it's, it's cool and it's techie and you know, and that's all great and and I think it's really for some of our, our families who and we've had almost 200 families, by the way engage with us and loan us, you know, their loved ones devices, so, I'm sorry, almost 200 devices total. It's been about 85 families. The average family gives us, you know, like two, between two and three devices to borrow.
Speaker 2:It's great to stand with suicide prevention when you are a lost survivor, because it it gives again a little bit of that meaning and purpose. And that's where that post-traumatic growth piece comes in, because you know it feels like, okay, I'm not doing nothing if I can do something, so another family doesn't have experienced what mine did, I want to do it, I want to, you know I want to, I want to help in some way. So you know this is not only I don't view this only as a suicide prevention initiative. It is obviously, and that's what stop, soldier, suicide does. That's our, you know, that's our mission. But this also is really good for the survivors, right, it can, it can be really helpful to them, um, and you know, give them something to help along there in their grief journey.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I don't think, um, I don't think when you go into any endeavor or any mission, even something as big as this, you should ever see it as over daunting or like impossible. I really do think that the culture needs to change within our veteran echo chambers mostly in social media Reddit, if you go to any of those places are veteran heavy. There's a lot of negativity, there's a lot of hopelessness, and I think we can combat that by having these discussions but remaining hopeful and understanding that I've gone up against insane odds before. We all have. It's up to nonprofits, but at the end of the day, it's the human factor. If you are willing to get help for yourself, get better, start walking, start running and start really thriving, then you can become a peer-to-peer support facilitator. Absolutely, there are millions of ways to do that. Just be a great friend to one person.
Speaker 1:In the 82nd we had this little saying called LGOPS little groups of paratroopers. This is the first thing that helped me was having my little LGOP shout out to Paul and Greg, just being able to get connected with friends that are trying to get better, trying to identify what resources are out there. It works. I look now to where Paul's at. I look now to where Greg's at. I look now to where Greg's at. I look now to where I'm at in my life. Lgops work little groups of paratroopers sticking together. Eventually, I went to a treatment center. Eventually, paul went to therapy. Eventually, greg got better too.
Speaker 1:Every last one of us found things that we needed to jettison from our lives, and you can do it too. It's not hopeless. It's not as look the enemy's out there. It's every single day. We're battling it. We're in the same fight together. It's just not personified in the face of a foreigner. It's a mental health issue. It's suicide, it's suppression, it's anxiety. We're not out of this fight and you can win this. You can literally win this. All you have to do is focus on yourself, get a little bit better and then reach out to your friends and help them find the same resources or different resources that helped.
Speaker 1:And there are plenty of organizations, there are plenty of people out there to help you in your fight. Stop Veteran Suicide is one of them Mission 22. The list goes on and on. If you don't know where to start, reach out, hit up Veterans Suicide Today, or hit me up at psychhoppodcastgmailcom. I will get you plugged in with some people or hit up any of my social media. You're not alone in this fight. There are thousands of individuals ready to help you today and again. That's a powerful ally, somebody that's healed and willing to help others. It's a grassroots movement. It doesn't matter who's in office, it doesn't matter what organization is trying to help. At the end of the day, we need you to stay in this fight. So please reach out today to Veterans. Suicide Kim. How do we get ahold of you and your organization?
Speaker 2:So Stop Soldier Suicide. Our website is just those words stopsoldiersuicideorg, just those words stopsoldiersuicideorg. To, as I mentioned earlier, to engage in our treatment, our, you know, to sort of do an intake, reach out for help, that way Again, free, confidential. We are a standalone nonprofit. We don't report to anybody, no government, nothing. That's gorogerorg and you can fill out an intake there. You can call us too. The 800 number is all over our website and then you know, and also we will support you with other wraparound services and connect you to other resources and services too. Because, to your point right, there are so many resources out there and not all are going to be what you need, and that's okay. But there is something out there that will help you and there's so many people that are willing and it's just a matter of of you know, reaching out that hand and then others will do. You know, we'll do the work for you, we're going to help you connect, you know, to what you need. Regarding the black box project, my email is my name, so it's K I, m, dot, b U R D I at stopsoldiersuicideorg, and you can find more information about the Black Box Project on our website too.
Speaker 2:But, like I said, I know that this is not something that's for everyone. We would love to share it with as many military and veteran loss survivors as possible to explore and see if it's something that they'd like to participate in. We would be incredibly grateful because, you know, our, our desire is to your earlier point, denny. Like the government's not coming, the VA is not, you know it's, it's, it's. We've got to approach this in a different way. We've got to be open to what. What can we learn? Hey, this we're fully aware.
Speaker 2:This project may not teach us anything new, right, it might not, but we've got to try, right, we've got to try. People need, you know, we need to try different things to try to to attack this problem, and and we're willing, you know, we're willing, we're willing to do this. So, um, any law survivors who want more information or want to, you know, want to just explore it, I would be more than more than excited to be able to do that. So it's such an amazing way to honor our loved ones, right? I think you know, if I could tell my brother all about this, what, what we're doing, I mean, I would have to think that he, he would be psyched, he'd be, you know he'd be behind it, he'd be proud of you know let's, let's try to change it so you know others don't have to feel what he felt and others, other families, don't have to experience what mine did.
Speaker 1:So thank you Absolutely, kim. Thank you so much for being here today, to all you listening. Thank you for tuning in. If you need help, please reach out today. Don't wait till tomorrow, and we'll see you all next time. So then take care.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much Take care.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much. If you like what we're doing and you enjoying the show, don't forget to share us, like us, subscribe. Thank you.
