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Episode 189: Eloise Cherian Healing Trauma with Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy
Eloise Cherian is the Communications Coordinator at Sunstone Therapies. Which is one of the Nations top healing centers for both Psychedelic therapy and clinical trials. Join us as we explore the efficacy and healing potential of these powerful medicine. Inspired by her studies in neuroscience and Michael Pollan's "How to Change Your Mind," Eloise shares her research experiences with ketamine therapy at the Minneapolis VA, uncovering promising data on psychedelics like psilocybin and ketamine. Discover why these substances could offer sustainable mental health solutions that go beyond traditional pharmaceuticals, and hear about the ongoing efforts to reschedule MDMA for therapeutic use.
Ever wondered how MDMA can foster empathy and social engagement crucial for trauma healing? In this episode, Eloise explains the neurochemical mechanisms behind MDMA and discusses its potential FDA approval for PTSD treatment. With extensive clinical trials showcasing its efficacy and safety, we delve into why MDMA-assisted therapy requires careful preparation, dosing, and integration with a therapist. We also broaden our discussion to other psychedelics like psilocybin and LSD, emphasizing the importance of supervised use and the risks of unsupervised ketamine therapy.
Eloise Cherian attended Pomona College in Claremont, California where she studied Neuroscience. During the summer of 2022, she worked at the Minneapolis Department of Veteran Affairs as a research assistant on a clinical trial investigating the efficacy of ketamine and Prolonged Exposure therapy for PTSD. Currently, she is the Communications Coordinator for Sunstone Therapies, a mental health company dedicated to the research and delivery of psychedelic-assisted therapy, located in Rockville Maryland.
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I'm good, good. Thank you so much for having me absolutely, um.
Speaker 1:But for those of you listening at home, uh, we connected over a couple weeks ago, three weeks ago now, at the socom care coalition conference and you're part of an amazing organization. Uh, stone, stone therapies. I say that, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And, uh, I think right now, like the hottest thing for treatment and rightly so is psychedelics. And I am, uh I am a novice, uh intellectual when it comes to my knowledge of uh psychedelics. But that's why you're here today, because not only are you uh passionate about it, you're working with a group of individuals that are also driven to not just be of service to everybody but, surprise, surprise, to veterans and military. And in today's world, we are so just bombarded with information, but we don't always get the right things, and I think, just even talking with my peer group, a lot of guys have misconceptions of what's legal, what's available. So today, eloise, you're here to help us with this. So please give us an introduction.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, thank you so much for having me. My name is Eloise. I am the communications coordinator at Sunstone Therapies, and Sunstone is a company that's really dedicated, as you said, to setting a high standard for the delivery of psychedelic-assisted therapy. We currently are running clinical trials with a number of different psychedelic compounds for different psychiatric indications and different mental health challenges and, as you said, this is something that I'm extremely passionate about. I feel very fortunate to be in this field at this time and with a company that is so mission aligned about making this treatment accessible to all who may benefit from it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's. I think we're. We're still a few years away. But let's start with how did you, how did this become a passion for you? Because this is like there's a lot of science, there's a lot of data, there's a lot of like. So much schooling goes behind. There's not just a simple thing where you wake up like, well, I want to study psychedelics, like you're committed to something for a long time.
Speaker 2:Yes, I actually got started when I was introduced to the book how to Change your Mind by Michael Pollan and that was introduced to me in between my sophomore and junior year of college and I attended Pomona College in Claremont, california, and at the time I was already majoring in neuroscience. That was always a passion of mine and an interest and I was always really concerned with, you know, kind of this epidemic of mental illness that we have in our country but also the lack of adequate treatment and understanding in general about these different mental health challenges. And reading the book it gives a wonderful comprehensive kind of understanding of the history and the research and the neuroscience and state of psychedelic research. And so that really initiated kind of my own interest in research, of working actually as a research assistant for a summer at the Minneapolis VA doing um as with Dr Paulo Sharoma, doing ketamine um therapy for in partnered with prolonged exposure therapy with veterans and that really just again seeing that work, um, kind of seeing that initial, really initial really interesting combination of psychedelic treatment and an established therapy model and trying to use ketamine to help with the efficacy and kind of sustained attendance in the program of prolonged exposure therapy. And after my work at the VA.
Speaker 2:I was in my senior year of college and I wrote my thesis comparing the neuromechanism, delivery and outcomes of psilocybin and ketamine for major depressive disorder. Of psilocybin and ketamine for major depressive disorder Um, it really just started um. When I started researching this, the findings, these preliminary data that was coming out of these studies, was so um transformative. It was incredible, it was rapid, it was sustained and it was pretty unprecedented for um was pretty unprecedented for treatment options that we don't have currently for things like PTSD or treatment-resistant depression. So I kind of knew that I was really interested in mental health care and this was the field that was the future.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's remarkable how much change you can see in a veteran after they've either participated in ketamine, psilocybin or DMT. It's remarkable. I mean VA like or love it. They made deal with the devil. They partnered up with big pharma. And now every veteran, just like me, you get your giant brown box or bag every time you go for your prescriptions. And it's ridiculous because it's not. It's not issued to you with a check in with a doctor and you talk about what your symptoms are. No, you could prescribe Prozac. You're on that forever.
Speaker 1:Nobody's telling you like, hey, these things like, for example, I never knew Prozac stayed in your body for a really, really, really long time that's scary to me.
Speaker 1:I had to find that on my own and there's nobody that's willing to talk about, like the long-term effects, whereas we're learning now through these trials, through what you guys are doing at Sunstone Therapies, is that there's great avenues of healing in these modalities and it's not like you have to continue taking them over and over and over again, which is, hey, exactly what I'm looking for, something that I don't have to like completely take for the rest of my life, that's going to be with me. And then I have to question like, okay, it's going to harm me down the road. And there's so many of us, and civilians and veterans alike, are wondering what is the long-term effect of taking these pharmaceutical drugs versus psychedelics world? And when we talk about psychedelics we have to pause and we have to like really line out, like the key players, like the big key players, what are the ones that are getting the most attention and have the most testing and show the most positive results?
Speaker 2:Yeah To one of your points about kind of a misconception about psychedelics as just another pharmaceutical treatment, which I'll go into later, but I do think it's really important. Your points about kind of a misconception about psychedelics as just another pharmaceutical treatment, which I'll go into later but I do think it's really important to acknowledge that this isn't intended to be a daily dose or something that you're taking continuously. This is a really transformative treatment that is difficult and it takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of work but the findings that we're seeing from one to three dosings is really amazing. That is kind of the top dog at the time and kind of the key buzzword. And MDMA right now is up for a rescheduling. So it has a new drug application with the FDA that is set to be kind of announced in August, august 11th and it is specifically for PTSD and so what that means. That has the highest level of kind of clinical trial data. It has phase three data. So phase one and phase two are smaller sample size clinical trials that are focused on safety and efficacy, and then phase three are larger trials. You have more participants and you're for PTSD are kind of being presented as evidence that it should be scheduled.
Speaker 2:Currently it is a Schedule I, as most psychedelics are, and this happened in 1970 with the Controlled Substance Act Act and Schedule 1 compounds are classified by having high potential for abuse and no known medical use as well, and so this data is really trying to present hey, there is medical use with these compounds and we should reschedule them so that they're easier there can be more research done, as well as easier to access.
Speaker 2:With that, we're seeing two other compounds that have received FDA breakthrough designation, and that's psilocybin for major depressive disorder, as well as LSD for generalized anxiety. So those are other compounds that are undergoing and involved in clinical trials. There are a lot of other psychedelics that are still being investigated. Ibogaine is an extremely potent psychedelic that is commonly being used in kind of retreat settings, as well as ayahuasca. Dmt is an extremely potent psychedelic as well. That is kind of in early stages research for treatment-resistant depression. So this is really like novel research, right, we have a lot to learn still, but we're seeing pretty incredible results from this data, including not only efficacy but safety as well, and really kind of sustained results.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I want to pause and highlight MDMA, because we've known, there's been studies that shown, I mean, they were using it for couples that were dealing with lots of complications.
Speaker 1:It's been studied and people have been trying and championing this for such a long time. But because it was banned, we've had this constant back push and backpedaling from government officials and established I'm not going to say who FDAs and all sorts of different organizations that just don't want to see it be brought to the market. What exactly is happening at the neurochemical level? What is MDA doing for us? It's allowing for individuals that are dealing with PTSD to sort of you know, within a several you know just a handful of treatments, be able to overcome that of you know, within a several you know just a handful of treatments to be able to overcome that. I mean, I've seen in my own lived experience EMDR, cbt, lots of great things that you have to be like on it, you have to be willing to dive into that. But it seems like MDMA is not having the individual divulge the situation and verbally talk through it, but it's helping them process it at a chemical and neurological level. What's going on?
Speaker 2:Yeah, mdma is really interesting. It's categorized as an empathogen, so it's not a classical psychedelic, because it interacts not only with serotonin receptors but also dopamine and oxytocin and it really is characterized with strong feelings of empathy and connection. We see increases in social engagement, in openness, in empathy really critical kind of emotions that can help when dealing or processing trauma. And it specifically interacts with brain regions involved in memory reconsolidation and fear extinction processes. So we're seeing like distinct neurological pathways involved in PTSD that are targeted with MDMA and this allows for new insights and expanded perspectives and empathy towards oneself, in particular during these experiences. I think it's critical that it can kind of create this distance or perspective to address trauma that doesn't feel as overwhelming and you have kind of this different perspective when addressing it. A critical component that I want to emphasize is that we say MDMA and it's with assisted therapy and so people that are going through these clinical trials are involved in a lot of therapy and that happens happens prior.
Speaker 2:you have preparation sessions with a therapist and that's to establish expectations. I think kind of one of the things that's happening with in the field is, um, you know, a saturation of hype around these medicines and so really adjusting for expectations about what this process is going to be like, setting intentions for the journey itself as well as creating a therapeutic bond and relationship, as you're going to be trusting this person with a really vulnerable experience. So a therapist is also there for the dosing. So that's when we're actually seeing an administration of the medicine. We're actually seeing an administration of the medicine and when we're seeing kind of a lot of and you know, no two experiences are alike, but for many people there's a surfacing of trauma and there is a kind of confronting or acknowledgement of an experience. And so having trained therapists that are trauma informed to handle those situations in the dosing is really important. But then the work really happens in the integration. It's grappling with the insights and then figuring out how to integrate those into your daily life for really sustained meaning and benefit.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad you said that because there's a misconception within the veteran community that this trauma that I'm holding on to, if I can just wait a little longer, wait and put off having to be vulnerable, I'm going to go into these, you know, go to these it. And the reality is no, when you sit down and do a treatment, you have to have somebody that's there with you to guide you through it and be able to put a little bit of context and help you deal with what you're still holding onto. It's not a magic wand like anything else. There has to be a proper procedure that's followed. And it's scary because we're seeing a lot of, especially with ketamine. We're seeing a lot of ketamine clinics and there's even at home. There's all these advertisements on social media where, hey, get, get your ketamine delivered to you, and it's like what the fuck.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm like, uh, hello, that's a very dangerous thing. Uh, it's a. Ketamine has been abused, mdma has been abused, been utilized recreationally. These are powerful medicines that if you take them and you don't have somebody there with you to guide you along the way, you're not going to have a great time or you might not be able to actually get to the point where you resolve your issue. And then you're constantly chasing this and then you're not, you're not anywhere.
Speaker 2:Um, our ceo always says if, if it, all it took was taking mdma, anyone who's been to a rave wouldn't have that. It's just not. That's not the case. Is that we're seeing um and there's really these key components too, of set, and setting is talked about a lot within the psychedelic um field of is. You know, your set is the kind of mental setting that you're bringing in, and that is why prep is so important to and discussing your intentions and making sure that you're supported and in the right space to be engaging with these, as well as the setting in which you take them. Like you're saying, going out into the woods by yourself. You know it might work for some people, but for others, you need to be within a safe environment with a trusted support and then to get the most benefit from it, working through what comes up in integration sessions after.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's 100%. It's scary to think that we live in a world where we still have access to these things and people just think that they can jump into it and just try anything and everything. So one of the questions I do have is when we look at psychedelics, how do we know which option is best for us? A lot of us are dealing with dual diagnosis. A lot of us are dealing with alcohol and drug addiction as well. So we see the success of these retreats where individuals that are dealing and we have drug issues within every aspect of the veteran community, whether you're soft or regular active duty, we have people that are suffering and I think it's important to know what's the best approach. Is it? Has it been broken down so that we know like, hey, if somebody is dealing with just anxiety and some depression, this is best for them and we'll do MDMA for PTSD. But what if? What if somebody comes across the board and they're dealing with? You know, do we have a clear avenue of approach for what modality is best for the patient?
Speaker 2:That's a fabulous question and honestly, the answer is, at this point, not yet. I think. With the process of clinical trials we are seeing a kind of pairing of psychedelic compound to indication, and that's not to say that a different psychedelic wouldn't be effective or wouldn't work, but it's just the way that research is working and how approval will work as well. With that being said, I think that as we learn more about these compounds, it might become more of an individual basis of what a person needs and less tied specifically to the indication. Um, we have a trial, uh, we just closed a trial. Actually that was um. We participated with psilocybin for ptsd and so really taking um, trying a new or a different um psychedelic compound for PTSD, they're kind of in their lanes right now. But I think you bring up a really good point of, as we're understanding um, there's also kind of going to your point.
Speaker 2:A lot of people are like how are these working for all these different things? Right, we have trials for addiction, we have trials for depression, anxiety, ocd, eating disorders, and you know it's across. We're seeing so many different kind of mental illnesses that are being investigated for psychedelic compounds. How is that possible? And I think it really speaks to, maybe our lack of understanding for the biological basis of these um kind of, you know, illnesses that we categorize as segmented or different, when it perhaps is more of a spectrum and we see comorbidities, um, in most, in a lot of participants it's very rare that you would only have one diagnosis. It's more of a primary diagnosis. So I think this is an important field and we're understanding more and more about maybe what is best serves an individual. With that being said, I there are um more studies it's really about I I would say it's less with the specific psychedelic um, I think that they're, you know, researching studies that are open for a different, for indications, um, but it's not. It's not a one-to-one as clearly as it may seem.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe someday. That's one thing that I've seen a lot of people ask and figure out like, how do I know which one to go for? Like, if I volunteer for a study, it's pretty much you go there and be able to identify everything. You're meeting with individuals that are well-informed, they understand and they're willing to put you in the best state and setting the best place with the best tools to try to combat these, these issues that we're all dealing with, and I think that's hey, this is what we got. That's great. Uh, maybe down the road, be able to identify exactly what specific psychedelic. But at this point, we you know facilities such as Sunstone Therapies. They have the research professionals, they have the individuals that are informed that can make it completely clear like, hey, this is a great place to start, which is phenomenal, because there's so many of us that don't know what to look at and it's best to be able to walk in and go somewhere and be able to say, hey, look, this is what I'm dealing with.
Speaker 2:What do you recommend? I was going to say that, you know, each psychedelic is different too, and so there's different lengths of acting too, and it's different in potency. So, um, for example, we see LSD on the longer end of eight to 12 hours, whereas MDMA LSD on the longer end of eight to 12 hours, whereas MDMA usually is between four to six, whereas DMT is an extremely potent psychedelic but lasts between 30 to 40 minutes. So they're really different too in that sense, and if you know kind of going in what, but it's not, you know it's at this point you can't select, you can't be like oh, I want.
Speaker 2:MDMA or I want psilocybin. Unfortunately we are. We are bound to um the the clinical trials and their protocols.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's great because it individuals like myself that are just able to study uh that don't have the institutional knowledge. You know I can be excited about psilocybin all day, but if I'm a participant in a research study and it's recommended that I do, you know substance a like that's what I'm going to go with. Uh, because you know it takes. I don't have the time to get the neuroscience degree and be able to say no, I am going to challenge this, but I do want to ask you about my favorite one, psilocybin.
Speaker 1:As I've, you know, in my little detective work and reaching out and talking to individuals that have sort of been taking the entrepreneurial approach to these substances, understanding and doing research and understanding that there is substantial research showing that it does help individuals such as myself that are dealing with not just with diagnosis of PTSD, anxiety, depression but also with TBI. It's showing great efficacy in helping individuals get back their ability to have conversations like this, the ability to be more approachable. What are some of the things that you guys have seen with psilocybin?
Speaker 2:Yeah, psilocybin is really an interesting compound. We were founded by oncologists, so we actually have quite a few studies that focus on the kind of emotional side of cancer and so we have studies with cancer patients with major depression. And that was actually our inaugural study was a psilocybin a single dose with cancer patients with major depressive disorder and it was a group therapy model as well, which is a pretty innovative model to psychedelic therapy and so individuals received a dose in a separate room, in an individual room but on the same day, at the same time, and then came back the next day for group therapy, for group therapy, and really incredible kind of takeaways from this and especially within thinking about a group model and kind of, you know, as I mentioned, kind of the empathy and connection with MDMA, where you also see deep connection and kind of senses of unity with other psychedelics, including psilocybin. That study we had an 18-month follow-up and at that point we were seeing still very high levels of not only response rates for their depression severity but also we had over 50% that were in complete remissions, no longer qualified for having major depressive disorder at the 18 month mark, and this was not just terminally ill, although that is.
Speaker 2:There is research specifically with end of life and palliative care, with psychedelics, but there's also an acknowledgement of the anxiety that happens and kind of lingers over someone, even someone in remission.
Speaker 2:With that being said, we also have a study right now with MDMA. But going back to your comment about couples therapy, and so this is a dyad study that has a cancer patient and a concerned significant other it has often been a spouse and they both have an MDMA session in separate rooms with individual therapists and then they come back and have a dosing sessions together in the same room with both their therapists present. And that is for addressing adjustment disorder and really acknowledging that mental illness does not affect an individual, it affects communities, it affects family units, and you know this better than anyone that, in order to kind of address, you know we need to include communities and families in this treatment as well. And so that has been a really interesting study, um, kind of uh, addressing the, the role that the caregiver plays, the role that um and and how that you know affects a relationship, and and how we can include them and in this treatment.
Speaker 1:That that is so amazing and it's something that I talk about all the time. When we address just a service member, just a veteran, we have great success if they're able to go on outpatient treatment, if they're able to get into EMDR, cbt, dbt, mindfulness, and they get three months to really work on themselves and they go home and maybe they got access to a stelic ganglion block and they're truly downregulated. They go home to their wives and their wives are burnt up. Their wives have just been keeping everybody alive in the home. They've been taking care of the kids and they've been dealing with the same depression, the same anxiety, because everything that you're dealing with you bring it home to the family. And then they you walk in the door. You're this happy, well-adjusted, you have this new lease on life and there's your wife, frazzled, just done. She's like yeah, I'm glad you're meditating, asshole, yeah, I'm glad you're looking good, but it's.
Speaker 1:It's something like this where you can take the wife and the husband. I mean, these are marriages that have been. You know they've been through the ringer, they've been through combat. You know they got 10, 15 years together with little ones and it's sad to say that when that person comes back and they're healed and they're great. There's a lot of pent up anger, and if you could take both of them and treat them and then give them the tools at the same time Holy cow, preservation of force. Family stays together. The individual doesn't get out of the military. We could just frigging, really, like we could address retention with just dealing with the issues as a family unit. That is insane, like that. That is, have you guys been able to start doing those tests with, um, military couples at all? Is that or is that something that maybe you could uh see in the in the future?
Speaker 2:Hope to see in the future. I think um, currently that trial is um cancer specific, which doesn't mean it doesn't cross over as well into the military community, but that is um kind of the primary lane for that. But I think exactly what you're saying. This is really trying to kind of set a precedent too for how we think about the model of delivery and who needs to be included, and as well as the integration programs.
Speaker 2:After, like you're saying, someone comes home and they've changed in their thought patterns, they've changed in their perspective, but that doesn't change. You know all that has happened, or you know things that have happened in the past, and so, acknowledging that this treatment is really the start to the healing journey, that this is not something that you leave and you're, you know, nice bow on it and you magically, you know, healed, it's really the start. It kind of it's to empower you to continue on and I think gives you tools, gives you perspective to continue on in the healing journey. But you know no one can do it alone on in the healing journey, but you know no one can do it alone. And so bringing in communities and family members, um into this care is really, is really important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. It's something that we have to always address, and I think we have a greater success, too, of individuals sticking to their treatment and sticking to their their mental health journey when the entire family's involved. That and it's it's it's one of those things that I I understand intimately. You have to do the healing for yourself, you have to want to get better for yourself, but it also helps if your wife has the same tools and has the same resources and when you're having a bad day, you look over and she's okay.
Speaker 1:Uh, why, uh when do we go do yoga? Why don't you go meditate and remember we still have this trial that we're a part of and we're we're fortunate we get to go do this together. So that's an amazing thing that I hope to see when we look at and this is always the fun part looking at the, the law state, the state of laws, and the, the, the things that we're waiting. Currently, the military will not allow service members to just go out there and use these be part of these studies, but for our veterans that are out, how do they get involved when these research studies?
Speaker 2:Yes. So the easiest, I would say, is to go to clinicaltrialsgov, and that really is a kind of wealth of information about clinical trials that are currently going on, and you can filter by types of trials, you can filter by your location, and so that can kind of give a wealth of information about what's near you and what might be available. I think also there are a number of academic institutions that are undergoing or conducting psychedelic research and it's really a matter of kind of applying. Most of them are on an application base and, with that being said, there are strict protocols and screening processes for these trials. But this is something that our government is really interested to in funding and making this available to veterans and to help in funding these programs.
Speaker 2:And it's important to note as well that, because they're clinical trials, they're at no cost to the participant. They're at no cost to the participant. So, um, okay, travel is is not always covered or um, but participating itself, um is, is not at at a cost, and so, um, that's something that we we love to kind of advertise that this shouldn't. You know, we want to make this um, and that's something that we're really passionate about too, as as commercialization is potentially on the horizon of OK, how do we still make these treatments affordable and available to all who may benefit, regardless of financial position?
Speaker 1:amazing thing that we're only going to get better by promoting these trials. By promoting, like. I mean, just a few years ago I had no idea about any of this stuff. I was just quietly suffering, going through my life thinking that all these uh compounds were just dangerous drugs to stay away from.
Speaker 1:And now, after educating myself, after doing research, after meeting individuals such as yourself and seeing like that, the passion behind individuals are committed, I mean you walk into a VA hospital or not every VA hospital but nobody's excited about new treatment modalities, nobody's excited to like heal you or talk to you about new things that are going on. It's very much walk in, do your blood work, walk out or set up an appointment for like five months down the road, but when you talk to anybody within this space of of uh treatment and healing, everybody's engaged and they're bright eyed and they want to talk about the latest studies. They want to talk about the new frigging endeavors that are being worked on every single day. Um, what are some of the things that you guys are doing at Sunstone that really excite you and make you just be a proud member of that organization?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, there's so much, honestly, um, I feel I feel really fortunate. I think that one of the things that stands out in the field in general is you know, this treatment doesn't, it doesn't work for everyone, like that should be, you know, should be stated. This is, um, like all medicines, it doesn't, it doesn't work for everyone, but I think it really is such a hopeful treatment for so many people who have not had other options, and so to see positive results coming out of severe PTSD trials and treatment resistant depression trials is really something that's incredible. I think Sunstone in particular, is really pushing the bounds, like I mentioned with the dyad and with the group therapy. I think I'm really excited about not getting comfortable in one model of delivery but really kind of trying to see and push the bounds of what actually is the best way to deliver this. How do you know leaning on a group and having a community to integrate with, how does that help people as well? I think I really strongly align that we believe in the therapy and we really value the therapeutic component of this treatment. That is, it is therapy assisted by psychedelics that you need trained professionals to help people and guide people through these experiences to really have the highest efficacy. This is really.
Speaker 2:I am fortunate enough to conduct some of our qualitative interviews with participants after they complete and can get some of their insight, and I think for a lot of people it is just such a gift of of perspective and living life. I do a lot of interviews with our cancer patients and people comment that with a diagnosis such as cancer they can stop living fully, they can, you know, get into this stagnant state and that, um, this really can reinvigorate a joy of living. And, um, it's hard, it's hard to not get excited about um something, something like that, and to really um kind of see, see what this work is capable of. And it's an uphill battle. It's not going to be something that's easy or simple or won't be without kind of adverse events in the future. This is not magic, it's not perfect, but when done with intentionality, when done in a professional setting with experts, I'm humbled by the results and by the light that is given back to people documentary on how to change your mind that it sticks with you, specifically the segment on the cancer patients.
Speaker 1:Seeing the individuals and the way they talked about their journey, I mean, what can be more fearful and dreadful than a diagnosis that your journey on this plane is limited? Now it's coming to an end, and for the family members as well. But being able to give somebody the peace of mind of, hey, this is a journey, and while it might come to an end now physically, for me there is something on the other side and I don't have to fear this anymore and it's easy to say it, it's easy to talk about it and engage with it. But to be dealing with it, to actually be living in that diagnosis like you have to understand that there's so much pain, so much fear and regret, and to be able to give somebody that peace of mind and that ease for the last few days or months, that's beautiful. Now just imagine what it can do for us. They're dealing with all sorts of different diagnoses that we don't want to continue taking pills for, or maybe we still have a difficulty even talking about it. That is a beautiful thing that I cannot wait to see where it's going Before I leave you off the hook.
Speaker 1:I do want to move towards ketamine because I feel this is the one that a lot of individuals are being sold, this idea that can just take it at home with with Hone's ketamine clinic kit at home and there's a lot of ketamine storefronts I'll call them a lot of places where you can just get treatment. But there are two different types of treatment. You can use ketamine for pain, for chronic pain. You can use ketamine for dealing with PTSD and a lot of individuals don't understand that you have to be guided. Still, you need somebody with you. There is a protocol to follow. What are your takes on ketamine and how rapidly it's? It's being utilized outside of a.
Speaker 2:You know a proper setting yeah, I think I think ketamine um is a difficult one because of its it was a schedule three, because it it's commonly used as an anesthetic and because it was at a lower scheduling it was able to kind of move into this sphere without as much clinical research behind it. With that being said, I think really you know reiterating what you're saying of this should be done in the proper setting. Ketamine has can be extremely beneficial for people and right now it's at a state where it's a lot more accessible to people as well. But it is really important to kind of understand, like you're saying, I think people go into it not really necessarily understanding what they're about to experience and because there isn't the same process of preparation and guidance and integration, it can leave a lot just on the person to kind of enter into this state alone in maybe a sterile you delivery that isn't mindful or isn't guided with experts. You know you're not able to go to a clinic that has therapy as a part of the process. Making sure that you have a therapist lined up to then help with the integrative process, I think is really critical.
Speaker 2:I think it's also important to understand that MDMA won't just become what ketamine is right, we don't expect to just see MDMA kind of delivery clinics popping up all over the place, and we wouldn't want to. I think that it needs to be handled cautiously, and so we're expecting to see, if it is approved, that it will go through a slow kind of rollout phase with clinics who have possibly engaged in clinical trials and know or have experience with these molecules, and it's unknown exactly what the requirement for therapy will be. But we're pretty, we're almost positive that some aspect of assisted therapy or guidance will be required with this treatment. So I think you're exactly right, it needs to be done intentionally, and I also think that one thing that we kind of talk about or is kind of it's still novel in the preliminary preclinical research or research into kind of the neuromechanism.
Speaker 2:But, um, one of the reasons why it's suspected psychedelics in general to work is this idea of neuroplasticity and the idea that your neurons can, um, there's some preliminary data around actual dendritic growth or neuronal growth. You're actually kind of having new neurons, new connections form within your brain. But I always like to say that synaptic plasticity by itself is not inherently good, right, having a malleable brain state or having new connections isn't inherently good, and that's why you need to have support. That's why you need to have guidance. You don't want to find yourself, you know, falling back into old patterns and understanding, kind of neurologically, the state that you're putting your mind at when you engage with these compounds.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's actually a brilliant point that a lot of people aren't thinking of. You go through this and you've got this great feeling and you're not able to get guided through the next steps. You're going to go right back to where you are, maybe regress in your therapy, in what you're going through, and that's something that a lot of people don't. I mean. You're going to walk out feeling high and great and wonderful and it's just like this bright new world, but you still need backside support, like anything else we've ever done in our careers in the military. Like after that initial success, you still need to come back and AR it after actions review, and that doesn't change for going through these new therapies, it's still the same thing.
Speaker 1:You go through something great. You go through something amazing that your mind probably can't comprehend, so why would you go back home by yourself? You need to be able to do this with somebody that can help guide and and and it puts some frame and help you with a frame of reference for what you're going through. Um, that's why I'm still a big advocate for making sure you're still plugged in to a conventional therapist, a counselor, a peer support system, people that are informed. You can't do this alone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you really can't. And especially you know these study protocols. They do end and there is a time when you are no longer seeing your study therapist, so having ongoing support is also really critical. Like you're saying, these experiences aren't integrated overnight. They take time. They can take months or years to fully process.
Speaker 2:One other thing that I will say about ketamine is because it works through a different neurological mechanism. It involves NMDA or glutamate receptors, and because of that, typically you do not have to be off of antidepressants to go through ketamine therapy. So I think that's a really big thing. To highlight is that part of participating in a clinical trial is that you have to wean off of medication. Part of that is, for you know, not wanting it's a research study, so you don't want to have conflicting medication at the time. Additionally, most common antidepressants are SSRIs, and so they interact with serotonin and since classical psychedelics such as psilocybin, lsd, mdma isn't classical but it does interact with serotonin as well you do have to go off of those medications, whereas ketamine, because it works through a different mechanism, people can still be on their antidepressants when they're going to ketamine clinics. So that does make it more accessible as well, because it is not an easy process to wean off and you do need physician kind of guidance for that process as well.
Speaker 1:You need physician kind of guidance for that process as well. Yeah, and as a note to anybody out there in the audience listening, that doesn't mean to come off your medicines just because you're going to try a clinical trial right now?
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no. You go through the process, yeah, please do not and don't do it. Or if you're planning to use recreationally, that is also not to say to stop taking your antidepressants. That is not the advice at all. That is more of a process and safety measure for the trials.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Everything that you do, regardless of who your primary care provider and I get it, the VA is not always the best, depending on where you're at. There are good clinics or bad clinics, or good providers or bad providers. Regardless, stay on your medication. Develop a plan of action to downstep, because you never know. I've witnessed it. I've seen friends go through it. They say I'm tired of this stuff. They've been taking the medication for four or five years. So what does that tell you? Your body's going to now go through this entire system of like what the fuck's going on? No, you down, you downstep with guidance from your provider, and you do it when you need to. If you're going to participate in a clinical trial, they will let you know when to do that. Eloise, thank you so much for being here today. The last thing before I let you go you're a busy professional, but in your own personal lived experience, what are some things you're excited about in the future with these medicines?
Speaker 2:I think I got into this work for honestly personal reasons as well, with seeing the effects of mental illness and struggling with um internal challenges. So I think that, personally, I'm really excited to see the development of this field and to see um this work become more accessible, to see more people being able to get involved in this therapy. I think that we've scratched the surface on what they're capable of and I think, as a as a neuroscience student, um I'm really excited to better understand um what's going on in our brain, as well as um a deeper understanding of consciousness, I think is something that has always interested me, and I think these compounds really they're fascinating in our understanding of altered states of consciousness and what that means for a kind of baseline state of consciousness. So I think I'm really excited for these to develop and become more available as well as kind of from a research standpoint, better understanding our brains and better understanding why we think the way we think and why we are the way we are.
Speaker 1:Awesome. That was perfectly said. I don't have another follow-up question. That's beautiful. We can change our minds and we can ultimately change the world.
Speaker 1:I do believe that there is something to these compounds Every close friend that I've had that. And psilocybin like I said, psilocybin is something that I've seen. The changes, I've seen the positive change in somebody that was just completely a shell of their former selves and, with just a few treatments, was back to being a flourishing, vivid, fully alive person. That's change. That's remarkable. That sticks with you, especially when it's somebody that you love and care about.
Speaker 1:So if you're out there and you're still on the fence and you're still, like me, at the, you know few years back, where you think these compounds are, oh, they're drugs, are evil. They're not drugs, they're medicine. And fun fact there's, there are a hell of a lot better for us than 90% of the shit that you get from the VA. So please, if you're willing to write and advocate on behalf of these treatments, do it. Talk and engage, be open to having this discourse with your friends, your immediate circle. Um, and if they are interested in going to Sunstone therapies, how could they get in? Uh, how could they get involved in one of these clinical trials?
Speaker 2:Yes, so I would say um. Check out our website, sunstonetherapiescom. We're located in rockville, maryland, but we do have patients from all over um the world actually, and on there there's ample resources. Regarding um. You know more information about what clinical trials are, what psychedelic therapy is um, as well as if you click start my healing journey, you can actually register your interest. There's our clinical trials page. You can see we have five open clinical trials right now, multiple that are recruiting patients, so you can explore those. You can look at past trials as well and register your interest, and that will start the eligibility evaluation process.
Speaker 1:Awesome, and if you're listening to this right now, pause and go to the episode description and that link will be right there. Eloise, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for being a passionate advocate and a brilliant mind at championing this medicine for all of us. This is what really. What we all need are people that are passionately engaged in their endeavors. So if you're listening out there and you're just half-assed in your life and your profession, leave, run away from it. Find something where you're just as passionate as Eloise is and studying these awesome compounds, and live a life To all you out there. Thank you so much for tuning in, eloise. We'll see you next time, take care.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:Always. If you like what we're doing and you're enjoying the show, don't forget to share us. Like us, subscribe and head on over to our Patreon, where you can be part of our community and get access to all of our episodes as soon as they drop. And remember we get through this together. Take care, thank you.
