Episode 176: Veterans Health Advocate and Keynote Speaker Sara Wilkinson

Sarah Wilkinson is a passionate advocate for Veterans and Mental Health. On this episode Deny and Sara dive into Sarah's compassionate approach to supporting those in the throes of mental health challenges and the art of showing up, and most importantly, listening. In this episode Sara discusses her views on advocacy and her own journey in healing. Wading through the wave pool of grief and healing, Sarah shared her poignant interpretation of life's contrasts—between 'stove touchers' who learn and retreat and those who immerse themselves amidst life's tumultuous currents. We traced the ripples of loss across the landscape of community and personal relationships. Sarah's narrative, rich with introspection, highlighted the introvert-extrovert balance and the essential nature of personal connections that act as buoys in the sea of sorrow, bolstering our capacity to heal and help heal.

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Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:01

security hot podcast let's go with a man who's the best with guns, with knives, with his bare hands, a man who's been trained to ignore ignore weather to live off the land job was disposed of enemy personnel to kill period not even the worst.

Speaker 1: 0:26

That's not even the worst. Uh, when I started this it was just all jerry-rigged and just figuring out.

Speaker 2: 0:32

It felt very much like having to do a, you know, an spt, uh video conferencing while you're deployed yeah, it's the things I've done to like, and all of of us right To like execute these virtual situations. It's uh, they see us right, but they don't know all the magic that's happening down here. It's like a.

Speaker 1: 0:53

Tetris. It's the most amazing thing that I carry forth from my time in the military. Like you're sitting there in a very professional brief, you're about to brief the sort of commander what you're going to do in this mission And've everybody's got their, their good tops on and the commander's like awesome, that's a great looking detachment, so professional. And as soon as it's over and everybody stands up, they're in board shorts, ranger panties and flip-flops and walk off yeah, yeah, I mean I'm not gonna lie that there might be a little of that happening right now.

Speaker 2: 1:21

You're just like, it's fine, you're just gonna see me from here up, that's it yeah, that's, that's the secret to it.

Speaker 1: 1:28

It's all an illusion. Yeah for sure. Sarah, thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate it. Um, it's, I understand you are currently busy and, like every other advocate that I've had the opportunity and chance to meet, the work never stops because the mission is always ongoing, it's always enduring. It's the battle at home. So today I want to focus on something that I know is close to you and is close to myself. It's how do we advocate not only for those that we lose to suicide, but for the survivors, how do we advocate for everybody that's involved in this, because there's a lot of pieces to pick up in the aftermath.

Speaker 2: 2:10

Yeah, well, I think that's a twofold question. So how do we advocate for people who have struggled but are still here? Is that what I'm understanding? Yeah, and then how do we advocate for the family members who loved one, made that choice and are left behind? Yeah, um, and that, that those are two.

Speaker 2: 2:33

In my opinion, those are like two separate sort of fights, if you will, or voices, um, I've been going through this thought process. So so you know, I do a lot of advocacy work or, you know, speaking out in terms of our veterans and supporting them, both just in brain health and mental health. But I'll be honest, I've taken kind of a step back the last couple months because it just wears on you and it kind of plays on you, and so I've had to kind of take a step back to be like get a breather and I'll address kind of the service members, if you will, first the ones that are struggling, because we know this is a huge issue. There are so many organizations out there that have mission statements that state they are supporting our veterans, and there's many of them doing amazing things. We also constantly hear this whole like buddy check, check on a buddy, check on your buddy.

Speaker 2: 3:34

I've said it and I'm like but what does that mean? And so this is just my recommendation, if you will, and it's going to sound really simple, but it's going to be very difficult for some of us to execute. And because the military loves acronyms, let's refer to this as Susie, and it's speak up, show up and settle in. And what I mean by that is speak up, and what I don't mean by that is don't necessarily be like, hey, man, how you doing, because that's too easily met with. I'm fine, it's good, it's all good.

Speaker 2: 4:14

I would like to see, yeah, and that's where it's like. This is where the supporters, right those of us spouses, first responders, friends, caretakers have to like dip your toe in and be like, hey, you don't really seem like yourself. You seem like you might be struggling with some stuff that might be difficult to talk about. Is that how you feel? I mean, like, get in there with the question. Hey, I'm always around. I would love, you know, for you to just kind of unload on me and be your ear. Um, I think how they respond to those questions will also tell you a lot, even if they still respond with a good or I'm fine, um, show up. What does that mean? It means physically show up. So go to their house with coffee, take them to lunch, offer to go on a walk, physically be there.

Speaker 2: 5:05

I can say from my experience as a griever this happened to me and this, I guess, can answer the question a little twofold, in the sense that I am very aware of the people who spoke up and showed up for me and that's not to take away from anybody who maybe didn't do that, but when people showed up, there are times I welcomed them in and there were times I didn't welcome them, and that's what's going to be hard for the people who are doing this work is when you show up to their door and you're greeted with a no. That can be hard to take, but it might just be a no for today, it might be a no for the week or for the month, but just keep going back and showing up Because at some point they might let you in, and it might even be years down the road, but you'll. You just don't forget the people who showed up, you just don't. And then, when they do let you in, then here comes the settle in, and settle in means settle in for whatever it is they're about to dump on you and don't meet it with accolades or kind of these soft landings Like you're so strong, you're going to get through this, you're brave to take this on. Just just listen, um, if anything yeah, if anything just confirm maybe how they might be feeling. I can see how you would feel that way. That must be really hard.

Speaker 2: 6:32

Um, I think we're in a world where talking about the emotional stuff is really hard and humans were kind of always quick to kind of bandage it up, kind of that way. Uh, the true work is just listening and and being open to it. So I think, in terms of our veterans, when we say, check on a buddy, I would like to see people speak up, show up and settle in uh more often, and I don't know if I want to use the word aggressively, but in a very more assertive way in terms of the family members. Oh man, if there's anything I've learned, grief is a ugly beast, and it's. It's ugly before it gets beautiful.

Speaker 1: 7:21

And it's different for everybody that the it's so different.

Speaker 1: 7:25

The old seven-step model that you might have heard if you were in the military and the chaplain briefs you that PDF or PowerPoint with seven clean-cut steps and it's like, hey, this is how you grieve your buddies that you lost and to move on.

Speaker 1: 7:38

It doesn't really necessarily work and modern studies and science and great thinkers and champions of mental health have all advocated for the understanding that it's not a linear process and you check each box, it's maybe you revisit it.

Speaker 1: 7:53

And one thing that I've noticed is if you've lost people in the military, it's kind of connected to a season, so summertime got guys that maybe act out, maybe you get more risky in your behavior, maybe you're getting emotional and you don't know how to and I'm speaking from experience you don't know until you sit down and talk to somebody and then you put it together. It's like, oh shit, how many friends have you lost in these particular months? Like. And then that that brings up the understanding of like, oh shit, if we do a memorial ceremony, I'm gonna feel this, it's gonna be a retracing, and it's not feeling like, ah, why can I get this right, why can I finish my grief cycle. It's understanding that, fuck, the right thing will pop up and you'll miss a friend and it's understanding that it's okay to grieve, it's okay to cry, like it's. It's something that we all should have gotten a really awesome curriculum on, but we never got.

Speaker 2: 8:49

Yeah, in some ways I don't think the military could have predicted the way so many losses over the years would affect people, not that they get a pass, but everyone's learning here. Those cycles of grief are an interesting one. I think they apply really well to a family member who was sick for a long time perhaps, or someone older in age. But for so many of us you and I and our friends you know my fellow widows and I refer to it as out of timeline deaths, meaning you know, my husband was in his forties, like he really wasn't supposed to die yet, as many of our friends.

Speaker 2: 9:29

So, um, it makes it hard, it makes it really hard that you had a life planned, um, and so for sure, you boomerang through those kinds of cycles of grief and I had a friend ask me recently is it always going to feel this way? And, um, I think I think we all grieve differently and I've seen that in my fellow friends. But I think there becomes. If you can find somewhat healthy coping mechanisms and I'm a big advocate of therapy and everybody going to therapy then you hopefully can find a place where the grief just sits in you and it's where you carry it always. It's always there. You can revisit it at will, but you're a little stronger to carry it.

Speaker 1: 10:23

Yeah it's, it's carrying that rucksack and if you continuously put more trauma and more stuff on top of it it's going to get infinitely heavier. But if you take a break, talk to somebody, maybe you can process a little bit and learn to pass off some of that weight. And then when you're you know, when you end your time with that specific therapist and you move forward and then if you have a hiccup or have another issue down the road, you stop by, get help again, like that's just a journey, that's life. It doesn't just end, it doesn't just like oh, I'm going to be putting this away, I'll never have to revisit it. There's no magic wand, it's just learning to adapt. Have to revisit it. There's no magic wand, it's just learning to adapt. In your lived experience, in your life, how did you go from being able to find closure at least to the point where you can move forward and then start advocating and helping others well, I'll be the first to say I probably started not at a good time, and you know what?

Speaker 1: 11:34

that's exactly what I found. The moment, the moment we feel good enough, just good enough. We want to help everybody else so I recently had this.

Speaker 2: 11:40

So I will say I think my, my upbringing has a lot to do with just my personal resilience and grit. I was a military kid, I moved multiple times, I went to tons of schools and that in itself just makes you pretty resilient. It gives you the ability to just adapt perhaps more fluidly, um, but with that being said, I will also say I consider myself a stove toucher and I recently came up with this analogy. My girlfriend's love I was like my fellow widow said why do I have to do all the things to know? And I said because you and I are stove touchers. She's like what do you mean by that? And I was like, basically, I have to do it, experience it, feel it, taste it all of it to know if it's something I want to do.

Speaker 2: 12:38

Where there's other people I refer to them, as you know, knee deep in the wave pool.

Speaker 2: 12:43

I refer to them, as you know, knee deep in the wave pool and those are the people who in life, they're living life, but they're also foreshadowing or can see when the waves are coming and they decide how much they want to engage. Like, I don't really want to go all the way in on that I'm not really ready. I think I lack some of those boundaries in the beginning and I just felt passionately I mean, I still love Chad so much and I just can see the other widows and how much they loved their person. I can also see our current spouses who are struggling to support the person they love and I just so passionately did not want someone else to join the chair next to me. So it was like, well, what can I do? How can I share my story in the hopes that maybe it will help someone else? I will say I think it's come at a pretty huge cost personally, but I wouldn't change it and I wouldn't take it back because I think some good has come from it and if it has been great.

Speaker 1: 13:51

Yeah, no, we. We underestimate how much of a cost it really puts on our health and and strains us mentally. Like being available, being of service to others at all hours of the night, all hours of the day, takes a huge toll, and then that begets more stress and can lead to more trauma. Like your body does not operate well when it's overstressed.

Speaker 2: 14:19

Yeah, I definitely had. My closest friends have seen it, but you know I don't I don't show it to other people but I definitely had moments of Pretty dark times for myself personally, even while you're trying to work and do all this good and it's straining you. I think I also underestimated the position it would put my children in, estimated the position it would put my children in, and I'm not sure I gave that enough like credit to begin with. Uh, both of my kids are amazing kids and they carry their grief differently and I think sometimes me being forward in front in the chat 1000x as great as it is, I think it has it's brought some challenges on our family.

Speaker 1: 15:10

Um, so, yeah, it's come at a cost yeah, no, taking on these monumental tasks, it doesn't leave you unscathed. It's another thing to deal with. So how do you prioritize yourself now? Now, in this time where it's like, okay, like I have been championing, I've done great things, I've taken care of others, how do we put the focus back on ourselves? There's a lot of us out there that need that, that message.

Speaker 2: 15:47

Yeah, I, I'm just thinking about my own personal experience. I mean, I do the best I can to kind of give back into myself and the things I like to do. I I know people probably see me as an extrovert, but I think I'm actually an introvert. I spend a lot of time by myself. That's how I recharge, like I have. I really have to be alone, um, or like maybe one other person, but I don't thrive on lots of people or big groups, so I definitely lean that way. Um, you know, not to get all hippie woohoo, but no, this is the perfect place to do it.

Speaker 1: 16:34

This is security.

Speaker 2: 16:35

One of the people I you know, I like to, I've followed or read his stuff is like Ram Dass and he says, like we're all here to help carry each other home Right and um, and that's just kind of like a general, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 16:50

Go Buddhist, go whichever route you want to go with it, and I think there's truth to that and that doesn't have to necessarily be, hopefully, at the end of our all very long lived full life. I think you know again, what's so lacking in our world today is personal connection, and while it can be draining on you as a giver, there will be times that people give back into you, and I definitely have received that. It's not lost on me the people and the relationships that I not only had prior to the loss of my husband, but it has like tripled, quadrupled since his death, and so, in a bizarre way, I guess that's that's something that has helped me. Yes, I'm an introvert and I recharge by being alone, but I'm also very aware that my world is very full and most people's can be too, if you just um look up yeah, we have a misconception with introvert and extrovert meaning that, like a lot of people think that I have to, I'm an introvert.

Speaker 1: 18:02

I'm always, always by myself. I'm extrovert. I'm always surrounded by everybody. Like you can dip back and forth and both I'm right there with you. Like one of the greatest things that I look forward to is just being with my wife. Like I just I love being able to connect on this project, being able to have welcome people to the in-home studio. But at the end of the day, like, if there's one thing I enjoy, it's my own mindful photography sessions or just being by myself in my home. Like that's that's a beauty of understanding what pours back into you.

Speaker 1: 18:32

Like, when you're dealing with grief, dealing with trauma and you need to find comfort, it's okay to go after the things that revitalize you, re-energize you. In fact, you need to. You're not going to be of help or benefit to anybody else. If you burn out, just like if you burn out at work, you can burn out in caregiving, and that's one of the things that we actually have a huge issue with caregiver burnout in this country. There's a lot of people that are constantly pouring out and they're not doing enough to take care of themselves. Yeah, when it comes to being able to navigate these types of situations, there's so many different tools out there, and one of the most uh, villainized or maybe misunderstood is plant medicine Things. Like you know, being able to go out of the United States and do ayahuasca is something that has recently become very popular and insanely successful for a lot of people. Um and I know that you've had an experience, is this something you'd be willing to talk about?

Speaker 2: 19:38

Sure, yeah, I'll talk about it.

Speaker 1: 19:41

Awesome. What was that journey like for you?

Speaker 2: 19:45

Well, I'll say this. You know I've done a lot of things as it pertains to my healing because, as we've said, I'm a stove toucher. So just to give a little bit of anybody who might be listening what I've done, I took a trip to Bali. I got tattoos. I saw a therapist regularly. I went to an intensive therapeutic retreat in the mountains of Tennessee for a week and I worked one-on-one with a therapist regularly. I went to an intensive therapeutic retreat in the mountains of Tennessee for a week and I worked one-on-one with a therapist up to six hours a day. I rode my skateboard. I hung out with friends. I avoided my friends. I drank probably a little too much. I didn't drink at all. I bought a pig like literally bought a pig. I met with a medium to see if I could connect to Chad. I, you name it.

Speaker 2: 20:37

I've probably tried to do a read books, listen to podcasts, like I was doing all the things. Uh, I like to think that I've always been fairly insightful within myself and, you know, have a fair amount of emotional intelligence as it pertains to myself. So I was a little bit like on this quest which I think again goes back to my background of the way I was raised and the way Chad was, and we were kind of like all right, here's the problem. What are you going to do about it? But finally deciding to go do plant medicine and I know that there's people who feel very strongly against it and what I will say is I believe that plant medicine is for anybody. It's not for everybody, and listen to that closely. I think it's a personal choice and I respect the fact that people may not want to choose it and there's other avenues in terms of healing to go down, but for me, plant medicine just seemed like the best option.

Speaker 2: 21:41

I've done a couple different journeys. I've done Ibogaine and Fyavimio DMT, which was done out of the country, and then, well, all of it was really done out of the country, but different locations. I've also done psilocybin and MDMA and I know that Ibogaine and Ayahuasca, which I have not done, and Iboga are ones that have proven to be very therapeutic, especially for our veterans that have seen war. I found it to be a good, valuable experience for me, but it didn't really hit the way I thought it would. I don't regret it. I don't feel like I need to do that again, but when we're talking about and this is just my own thoughts veterans doing Ibogaine to challenge maybe their childhood past or their war experience I can see how it would be applicable.

Speaker 2: 22:47

I will say that I came from a pretty idyllic childhood and I'm very grateful for it. I didn't have a lot of that in my past. That was troubling. I also haven't seen war firsthand. I was dealing with true, just heartbreak like earth shattering heartbreak for the love of your life. That was really just came out of nowhere. So what I have found to be the most beneficial for me has been psilocybin and MDMA. It's allowed me to kind of look back into myself, at my ego and my subconscious and it's really alleviated some of the pain and the hurt I feel from the loss, um, which comes up still. But um, it's allowed me in a lot of ways to kind of timestamp Chad in the love that I feel versus it always feeling so shame and guilt ridden. Yeah, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1: 23:56

No, absolutely. That's one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about. Is that guilt and lingering shame, that pain that we can't seem to remove, no matter how hard we try. I could have done something I could have been there to remove, no matter how hard we try, I could have done something. I could have been there Monday morning. Quarterbacking for so many of us is a real painful issue that we deal with, along with moral injury, and it's so intimately linked to that loss and it stays with us and it just gnaws at us over and over again. And how did you? Do you find yourself running away from that? Or did you finally find yourself staring it down and understanding like, hey, this is not my fault, this is not something that I can beat myself up over and over again?

Speaker 2: 24:46

This is kind of one of those boomerang emotions we were talking about earlier. It um. I read in a book one time it said something to the effect that your subconscious doesn't care about facts. And I was like huh, because if, if we've had, we had Chad's brain donated to research, you know, I know that he had injuries to his brain and I one would say, hey, his, he had physical wounds on the brain that manifested itself into a multitude of problems, to include a mental struggle, and that's why he made this decision and he took his life. So facts right, but the unconscious doesn't care about facts.

Speaker 2: 25:29

And what my unconscious mind constantly tells me is that he was my best friend, he was the love of my life. I would have done absolutely anything to help him and save him. And what my unconscious mind also says is that if he and this is literally what my brain says to me like if he made the choice to leave, it was almost like a betrayal against you. You know you weren't doing enough. He didn't trust you, he didn't feel safe with you. There's shame involved in that and I would be lying if I didn't say that that pops in my head on a pretty regular basis, but I think in the beginning of my grief, where it was literal turmoil I mean, if I could just have someone feel the way I felt of this just constant like hamster wheel in your brain and it was it was so punishing to myself and kind of like you were saying earlier talking to a therapist and, you know, getting some things off your chest. I always use the analogy of letting air out of the balloon, so it was like if we overfill a balloon, what do we do? We like pinch the sides and like let some air out.

Speaker 2: 26:52

And in the beginning of my grief I I was so filled with shame and guilt and kind of embarrassment and sadness and anger that I kind of just unleashed on people that were in my path. I was, I was an asshole, um, and it kind of got to the point where it's like I can't live like this, which then obviously led me down the path to search out for all this healing. However, with all that said, just two days ago I was driving in the car and those exact thoughts popped up. It was like wow, it's been five years. Like look at all that I've done. Like look at all that I've done.

Speaker 2: 27:41

And I think that also plays into. Why was I so fast forward to speak out, be an advocate, those sorts of things is in the beginning. I think it was the only way I felt that I could still express love to Chad. And what I've finally kind of come full circle on is I don't need to do that anymore to express that love, like I just know where it sits with me. Um so yeah, but it's still that shame and guilt. And you know I can't speak for all families that have experienced a loss, or especially a loss like the one I have, but you know I imagine they all carry that a little bit differently.

Speaker 1: 28:22

Yeah, how does self-compassion show in your life these days? Reason I asked that is because, uh, I'm a big, big, freaking fan of dr kristen neff and her work on self-compassion and having practiced understanding like how important it is, especially when dealing with trauma, guilt, moral injury, but it's hard to cultivate like our, our, our demographic, our type of people. Fuck, we're really hard on ourselves and that's like one of the first things I always reflect on, like how does self-compassion show up in your life? How are you willing to extend that Look a little bit of, like, positive love affirmation on daily basis?

Speaker 2: 29:11

I don't know. I mean I would be curious what she would say to my answer on this, but I think I, I think my self-compassion is when I give in to others. That's, that's when I feel you, you know, I mean, um, you know it's, I've been, I've been told, I'm loud, I'm unapproachable, I have a lot to say and I'm bold. None of those were meant to be compliments when they were told to me, but I took them as compliments.

Speaker 1: 29:49

I was like all right.

Speaker 2: 29:50

Um, and you know maybe I'd come off that way, but I also know I'm super all right and you know, maybe I come off that way, but I also know I'm super, super sensitive. So I don't know if I have a great answer. I mean, I think I think we all struggle with it. Yeah, I do think I was. I did a bunch of writing the other day because I was walking down the street and I kind of had this like a personal epiphany and I I do think it's gotten better for me as I've gotten older. Maybe it's my loss, maybe it's becoming an empty nester, which probably has been one of the second most hardest things I've had to do, but kind of coming full circle where you know, at almost 47 years old, I really like myself, I do, I like who I am, and to be able to say that and and be okay with it, that feels pretty good.

Speaker 1: 30:53

So that is a huge achievement that so many of us never get a chance to, to really truly understand how important it is that a lot of people in the military, especially in the elite groups within special forces, rangers, navy SEALs we are self-loathers and we just we're the first ones to, you know, cheer on a friend, a counterpart and love on everybody else, but we are hard on ourselves and being able to sit down and say, wow, like I love who I am, I love and I'm proud of everything I've accomplished, that's really hard but it's such a oh, go ahead.

Speaker 2: 31:37

Oh, it's just hard and it goes against everything that you all have been trained to do. I mean the. I've said this multiple times, but the things that make special operators great in Excel are potentially the same exact things that will lead to their demise Bingo, I mean. And so it's like how do you deprogram that? That? Um, I don't know. This is a good place to segue to this, but I would even go a step further and say one week where, where we know one of the most sensitive times are for our military service members and specifically special operators, is is, uh, transitioning, whether it's transitioning to a different command or duty station, but really transitioning out, leaving, because when you leave, you feel like a quitter, you feel like you're leaving your buddies behind, you're not going to be part of a team. How am I going to recreate that in the civilian world? I mean, you've reached here, what can I do to go here? And so they leave.

Speaker 2: 32:45

And while there's a lot of transition programs out there and people that assist with this process which I think is wonderful and needed and they do great things I almost feel like the conversation needs to be different and I don't necessarily think that we need to encourage people to spin 180 and go get an MBA or go, you know, for the six figure job or whatever like that will still be there because you will always have the title of being this under your belt.

Speaker 2: 33:22

I almost you know. If we want to, if we want to support the service members or their family and friends that are trying to support them, sometimes that might include us encouraging them to just take a beat, just take a minute and I realize finances are involved in that and not everybody has perhaps the financial ability to leave the military and not start a six-figure job right away. Military and not start a six-figure job right away, but in whatever way you could maybe make that look for you a month, six months, a year. I don't know. I think there could be some great magic that happens in the times that those people take a minute.

Speaker 1: 34:05

Absolutely. I champion that same concept every single day, talking and coaching guys who transition. There's ways you can do it. Look at your debt, look at your income. We never talk about budget. The vast majority of us leave the budget up to the wife. That's it. She'll take care of the money. No, take an active approach in your budget. Look what you can pay off if you start planning for your transition to three years before you do it, pay things off, get rid of things, jettison everything you don't need and look at hey, can I float, can I build a runway of cash for a year, two years?

Speaker 1: 34:42

I know a Navy SEAL right now, liam Cogan, who is traveling around the world doing amazing things, doing whatever he wants to do, and he's passionate about it, and he found a way to make money. That is beautiful. He planned, he executed a plan. That was all for him, what he wants to do. But nobody wants to tell us to take time out to cultivate an identity, a passion, a purpose. Wow, that's cool. It's the first time I did that. Awesome Hand signatures, badass.

Speaker 1: 35:13

Find what you're passionate about. Find out what you really want to do, and if it's a being of service to other people, there's a million ways to do that right now and you can do it. Nobody wants to tell us that, hey, you can go out there and start a podcast. You can go out there and start a YouTube channel, can go out there and start a youtube channel, a twitch channel. It. Maybe it's not forever, maybe it's not profit work that you want to go into and do a couple years of volunteer work. You owe yourself and your family that time to figure out what you really like and what you really enjoy and then write it all out and, before you know it, maybe you are going through vr and e to a doctor Because fun fact, they'll pay for that. Or a lawyer, they'll pay for that. Then you go to school and getting paid to do it. But we like to put ourselves.

Speaker 1: 35:56

Oh, go ahead Sorry.

Speaker 2: 35:58

No, you're good, I, you know the military guy. I say guys just because that's generally my population. This is not against women, women, men, they ride the red line so long, but so does the family. Right, I mean your family is in it too. Your family, as far as I'm concerned, your family is serving and I realize they're not overseas in the, you know, but they are outstations and all this sort of stuff.

Speaker 2: 36:29

But you know, I mean everybody has served and so maybe, maybe that's part of the conversation is targeting it that way, like it's not just you that needs a beat, it's your family members need a second, you know, to take a knee and just like shake it out. And that's that's coming from someone who I feel like I'm pretty driven and I like to achieve. I know Chad was very driven and likes to achieve. So it's hard to say that. But I think it's ridiculous to think that you can ride the red line through a full career in the military and then transition through a full career in the military and then transition and you're potentially kind of recreating that at times in the civilian sector, whether it is, you know, the MBA, the investment firm, the six figures. It's just. But then again. You know I live part of my life in a van, so I don't know if people want to listen to me.

Speaker 1: 37:29

But that's pretty fucking cool. I mean, let's talk to that. You know how did that come about? How did that idea I mean, it's everywhere, but still it doesn't matter how many people do it how did that become a reality for you?

Speaker 2: 37:46

Well, I'll squash that bug right now. That van life is not what you see on Instagram. I feel like I need to change my Instagram to target what true van life can be.

Speaker 2: 37:56

But I so one of the things I did for healing was I always wanted to see the Pacific Northwest I just had never been there and I wanted to do it in a camper van. And I found a company and I used Chad's huge Patagonia massive duffel I wore as a backpack, I packed basically just what I needed. I flew into Seattle, picked up my camper van and I spent 10 days driving to the Pacific Northwest with one rule and it was to speak to as little people as possible, and I think I had three conversations in 10 days and that doesn't count like the grocery store clerk or something, but yeah, literally three conversations, because I just I think at that point I just wanted to be very internal and what's cool about that is I also have some really great stories which would should be for another time. But what's cool about that is, if you really think about it, the less you talk, the more other people do. So the things I learned about people at campsites and they just tell you all kinds of stuff about their life and how little to nothing they knew about me and I I found that to be great. But anyway, before I even made it through the trip, I was to return in San Francisco, I was sitting in a little camp spot and band in Oregon, which is beautiful. I've never been and I was already researching bands and how to have my own. And again, I think we all are very much kind of products of our foundation and our foundation being our youth and our upbringing. And I think what I was reverting back to is I just don't need that much. I'm not personally, I'm not a I'm not a stuff person. I don't. I don't really need the big house or the fancy cars or the watches or the whatever I don't know Name it. I just wanted less. And I probably wanted less because I was carrying that emotional rucksack that was so damn big big it couldn't fit really anywhere either. So I got this van, built the van out and had it done I think finally in January of 2021.

Speaker 2: 40:20

And then took off cross country later that year, spent some time living on Ocean drive down from the Dell and Coronado and my van and just kind of bouncing around, and I love the freedom it provides. I loved the anonymity and what I mean by that is not like I'm somebody, I mean it more. Like you know, living in Virginia beach is where I chat and I lived for so long and it's the closest thing to a home that we have, because we were military kids too. So we've never lived anywhere that long. It's a great town. It was a great place to raise our kids. We have great friends and family there. But once he died it just felt so heavy to me there and I would go in stores and you run into people and it just it was.

Speaker 2: 41:14

Everyone knew your story and being in the van provided me the ability to to not have that or carry that. No one knew me from Adam, and so it was good. Um, knew me from Adam, and so it was good. It opened up a little bit of my bandwidth. But then here's the interesting thing. So I've been fortunate enough and I say fortunate because I do. I'm traveling right now. I travel around.

Speaker 2: 41:44

I went out to California this past year, rented a little place because I thought I might want to live there, been there, been in the van, figuring out where I'm going to go next, and what I realized is this is where I recognize I still have quite a bit of healing to do, because I kept trying to change my location, but every time I changed my location I was still there. But every time I changed my location, I was still there. So it's like, well, it's not really getting better. It's cool to be these places, but why do I still feel this way? And I still feel this way because you know, as the Trevor Hall song goes put down what you're carrying, you know and it's um, um.

Speaker 2: 42:35

So yeah, the van is great and I'll probably go back in it starting in may and be in there for a while, yeah, bump around.

Speaker 1: 42:37

I think that you just highlighted something that so many of us spend years and decades trying to identify why it doesn't feel right, why this place doesn't feel right, this work, that this job doesn't turn out, and then I move here. I can't make it work right here. Well, look inward. That that reflection, that deep work, if we don't pause and look inside and really address those issues, like we're going to constantly be searching for a home and for and never realizing what's going on inside, like that is, that's powerful. It's just a lot of guys and gals need to hear that.

Speaker 2: 43:15

And that's why that's just more testimony for therapy too. My therapist, who I love, and I always tell her I want to shrink her down and just like put her in my pocket and just carry her with me everywhere. You know I haven't been able to see her since I've been out West and I recently was able to return back to Virginia for a few weeks and I went to go see her and I told her about something that had happened while I was gone. That made me really, really upset and it was one of those things where you're like, why am I so upset about this? I kept asking myself like, why is this bothering me so much?

Speaker 2: 43:51

But I think because of so much therapy that I've done, and not just specific to Chad and my loss, but just as a person.

Speaker 2: 44:00

It gives you the tools to like take a minute and kind of sit back and kind of evaluate yourself and be like all right, this is how I'm feeling because of this, and I know I get this way sometimes because of this and what will make this better? And you kind of can work through your own little personal worksheet because you've built these tools with this therapist, um and so so like to speak to anyone who might be listening. You don't necessarily have to experience a tragic loss. It's really about talking to someone so you can better kind of dissect yourself as a human and understand where your strengths are. But people should also have a pretty good working knowledge on where their weaknesses are. And I don't think just because their weaknesses means that you need to like overcome them and be better. You just sometimes need to recognize like yeah, I'm not, I'm not very good at that. Like like be okay. Saying like yeah, I'm just, I'm not good at that.

Speaker 1: 45:02

Yeah, it's, it's. Therapy gets a bad rap because somewhere along the line we have this idea that if you go to a therapist you're gonna have to go see them every single day for the rest of your life, and that's not a reality. Mental health is a journey, and you're on that road and maybe you veer off into an unknown dirt road and you blow out a tire and then you need help. Of course you're going to ask for help. You sit down and talk to a therapist and therapy is never supposed to be a consistent thing. You set goals and objectives, like once you meet them and you're, you're back on the road. The therapist says, hey, you're doing good. No, take off go on your own.

Speaker 1: 45:44

If you ever find yourself lost again, hey, feel free to come back. And that's the beauty of it. You don't have to feel like you're, you know, beholden to this one therapist for the rest of your life. No, you go. And then when you stumble and you're like, ah shit, I'm having panic attacks again or my depression's going haywire again, no, I'm going to reach back out to my therapist, and there's nothing wrong with that. And you, high five, make another list of objectives and then you go at it again.

Speaker 2: 46:14

Well, let's talk about this, then, because when people talk about mental health, it's always referred to as a negative, a deficit, a less than. But here's the interesting thing we're all born with, like a brain and emotions. We're also all born with muscles and bones. I wasn't born to deadlift 250 pounds, but I did now. I wasn't born to do pull-ups, but I can do them now, and so I wish somehow we could turn the tide a little bit. It's like the same reason you go to the gym for health and wellness in terms of bone and muscle structure. You should be working on your mental health, not because you necessarily have a struggle and we know that some people are maybe biologically predisposed to mental health conditions, for sure, but we should focus on mental health because it's health and focusing on it will make you mentally stronger. Yeah, why, why is this hard to understand? I don't mean to you, I mean like for the world. No, sir, I understand it. Why are we talking about it this way? So it's just frustrating to me.

Speaker 1: 47:33

It's crazy it's, I think, with the promotion and advocate advocacy for things like positive psychology, understanding that like we don't have to always just look at the negatives of traditional psychological care. Like people hear DSM five and they're like, oh my God, there's someone's going to diagnose me with something. It's like, okay, maybe or maybe you'll be able to sit down and work through something that you haven't been able to work through because of something you experienced. Or maybe you're learning how to optimize your ability to deal with stress. Because, guess what, as much as these gurus online want to tell you that you can have a stress-free 2024,.

Speaker 1: 48:11

Stress is part of life. Anxiety is part of life. It's how we deal with it. It's how we understand that I don't have to squeeze onto and try to control this, worry about a test or worry about a meeting with my boss, like, wait a second, like no, I don't have to control this, I can let it go, because the only thing I can affect is right now, in the present moment. I can't worry about tomorrow's meeting or the meeting that I may have botched last week.

Speaker 1: 48:36

It's over, it's done, yeah, but nobody is there to tell us this, unless we're willing to go in and sit down and talk to somebody that has the tools and weaponry to help us combat this, and that's a beautiful thing Once you realize, oh, there's no stigma around it, like it's one of the greatest resources that does work. It's just being able to talk, and now we have peer-to-peer support groups. We have people that have lived and done exactly what we've been through, and we don't have to feel so alone by talking to somebody that maybe doesn't understand us. Like there's tons of resources out there and it's just as simple as having a talk with somebody. Sometimes you just need to talk with your best friend, as long as you're actively listening and not trying to solve the problem for you.

Speaker 2: 49:22

That could be really a helpful tool too yeah, yeah, I think we just live in like an all or nothing world. Yeah, um, and it 10,. I mean it's all or nothing. I think I recently posted a thing about this. But if you go on any platform right now and you look at, you know mental health and being the best, you and we're just inundated with these things. I think everything is saying everybody is saying some really great things. You know it's meditate, breath work, cold plunges, sauna, get massages, maybe do acupuncture. How about plant medicine? The list is really long.

Speaker 2: 50:09

But where we get in trouble with the all or nothing mentality is that people think I have to either do all of this or none of it and it kind of sitting here thinking like maybe that pertains to some of my self care, self care, and that I'm just like, yeah, I don't, and I don't meaning meaning not that I don't do any of that, I don't overwhelm myself with trying to meet every single wicked. I'll tell you right now and this is nothing against this community I cannot do yoga, I just can't. It just drives me crazy. And I've tried it. Just that's not for me, it is for other people. And if it's what they like to do, I'm like, yeah, go do that.

Speaker 2: 51:05

But because of my self-awareness, I know that I am not going to be a good time on a mat next to you in your yoga. I'm going to crush it, you're going to hate it like i're going to hate it, like I'm going to be complaining, and so I don't do yoga. But I do other things and I think encouraging people. You know your health is. This is this giant continuum. You know it's. It's like your personal umbrella and you need to decide what you want in your umbrella Um and and and. Just focus on that, do you?

Speaker 1: 51:36

yeah, you know that is so true. Um, what about mindfulness? Have you dove into that at all in your journey? That's one of the things I found to be extremely helpful well, tell me how you have.

Speaker 1: 51:51

And so I can better understand because so bringing that, cultivating that present moment, awareness, understanding how to sit down and redirect your mind instead of constantly being in that rumination mode, constantly worrying, constantly stressing. And just. It starts with just as simple as doing your focus on your breath, meditation and redirecting your thoughts, and then practicing mindful eating and body scan meditations. But at the core of it, it's simply being able to observe your thoughts, observe your surroundings and understand, to let go of controlling and judgment and just be present. And that's been one of the biggest things, because the one thing that I couldn't do was let go of anxiety and depression, because it was all linked to either focusing on the future, which is the anxiety, or being depressed about the past. And that's how mindfulness has become like. You know, I got my certifications, I teach it now. Now it's become a great source of of healing for me and I'm always curious seeing if other people have tapped into it in their own journeys.

Speaker 2: 53:00

I've dabbled with it. I will say that's part of my problem, probably with yoga is like I sit there and I'm like how much longer, you know? And again, I I do have a hard time cause my mind goes really, really fast. Um, you know, I know, even sometimes, when you're talking to someone who talks slower, I'm like, yep, I got it, I got it, I got it, you know I get the words out faster.

Speaker 2: 53:29

Again, it's something I'm not I'm not that great at. You know, I'm not very patient, for sure. Uh, so mindfulness for a while I was doing an exercise when I was back in Virginia and working out at the gym as I would after my workout, I would sit down just in the gym, the busy, crowded gym, and I would sit cross like this is a thing from Melissa urban, and that's when I would do it. I would just sit really quiet and you can hear all the things happening in the gym and and that was that was a good practice, that was challenging for me and I don't know if this counts, but I think most of my mindfulness happens meaning I can just really kind of take a look in about what I'm thinking about and what's bothering me is usually when I walk.

Speaker 2: 54:13

So obviously I walk a fair amount with a rucker, go rucker and you know it's because I like I kind of it helps me to move, but I can move and not have to talk to anyone and just walk through the neighborhood or wherever I am and just kind of think about the week that just passed, any conversations I had, how do I feel? What's maybe keeps coming up that I get same thing, kind of anxious about or reoccurring thoughts, but I would say for me it's probably more active and I don't know if that's necessarily the best thing. It would probably be better if I challenged myself with what's hard for me, and that is sitting still. But so maybe I should take that challenge. If I challenged myself with what's hard for me, and that is sitting still, but uh, so maybe I should take that challenge.

Speaker 1: 54:57

Yeah, I'm telling you this is truth, it's scientific 12 minutes a day. Start with 12 minutes a day. I, I know, I know, hey, look, uh, I I hold my clients to the same standard. Like, start with small 12 minutes, then do maybe mindful eating, turn everything off and just focus on eating slowly. And I get met with the same looks of sarcasm yeah, I'm going to sit there and eat slowly. I'm like, yeah, look, I get it. I live the same life. You just eat really rapidly and you move on to the next thing.

Speaker 1: 55:32

But bringing that present moment awareness to everything that you're doing allows you to finally understand the importance of being there aware. I would send emails before and not realize I sent the wrong email to the wrong person about a completely different topic, because I'm just constantly scatterbrained. I'm living like trying to play 3D chess and with mindfulness, I stopped doing that. What are my hard do-outs? And then when I look at my calendar and realize like, okay, what's more important? Getting my workout, my meditation in, or struggling and stressing about this shit? I don't have it. And here's a fun fact about Security Hall Media I'm the fucking boss. So if I don't want to do something that day, I don't fucking do it because it's more important for me to get those things that revitalize and pour back into me, like being with my wife, then sitting down and being frustrated about a stupid social media post, Screw it.

Speaker 1: 56:26

Live in today, Live in the present moment because, hey, fun fact, at some point it all ends. At some point that timer that's above our heads, it expires and I don't want to go out missing out. I want to live my life to the full extent and no one's going to give two shits about that meme that I don't post. But you know what I will care if I missed out on 45 minutes with my wife being able to do something and enjoy life or go fishing or go do photography. Live life to the fullest. We made it through the worst of it. We made it through the worst. Now we get to enjoy life. Sarah, thank you for being here today. Thank you for being brave and bold and sharing your journey with thousands of us across platforms, videos, and being an advocate. But before I let you go, in this new season of your life, what are you doing? What is the new motto? What is the new thing that you're excited about?

Speaker 2: 57:27

Am I allowed to use cuss words?

Speaker 1: 57:28

Abso-fucking-lutely.

Speaker 2: 57:31

No, I jokingly say, you know, I've lately just put a lot more things in the fuck a bucket Just fills up.

Speaker 2: 57:38

It's like, ah, fuck it.

Speaker 2: 57:41

You know, overall I would say I'm a person who I've really learned what matters, kind of to your point you were making a minute ago Again, for me it was having a loss like this, and you just realize like there's just a lot of shit I don't worry about, um and don't care.

Speaker 2: 58:00

But I think for me it's um, it's trying to give back to myself a little bit more, cause I cause again, I I've given up a lot of myself, especially in the last five years, and trying to I always use the example of grief is like a flower sifter and there's just these big rock boulders of flower and you're just kind of sifting through it and it's getting a little easier to sift and so just trying to revisit what could be next for me in my life moving forward, my kids are for the most part grown and flown.

Speaker 2: 58:39

They don't live at home with me anymore and I love any moment I get with them. But really trying to think of, I like to think that we all are versions of multi-potentialites, meaning you can do and be a lot of things in this lifetime. If you open the door and that's kind of what I'm trying to figure out what will I do next? I will always care about veterans and there will always be a part of me championing for them, but I don't want that to be my only purpose. Moving forward.

Speaker 1: 59:17

Absolutely, Sarah. Thank you so much. That's like the realest fucking answer ever. It's time for. Sarah 3.0 and I'm here, for it. I'm excited to see where you go next and I uh, I think everybody else will be there cheering you on. So, sarah, thank you for coming on today, and I can't wait to see what you got next.

Speaker 1: 59:37

Everybody listening at home. Take a few moments for yourself today. Practice some self-compassion, or not. Either way, hope you have a great day and we'll see you all next time. Until then, take care. If you like what we're doing and you're enjoying the show, don't forget to share us. Like us, subscribe and head on over to our Patreon, where you can be part of our community and get access to all of our episodes as soon as they drop. And remember we get through this together. Take care.