Episode 170: Ruben Ayala CEO of Triple Nikel

Ruben Ayala CEO of Triple Nikel is back! Ruben and his amazing team have been working on the highly anticipated "Black Ops" documentary. This project is all about honoring our unsung Special Operations heroes, who come from minority backgrounds. This documentary breaks through the mainstream media's barricade, spotlighting the heart, grit, and heroism that has enriched our SOF culture for DECADES! As we eagerly await its Amazon Prime debut, we discuss the profound influence of cultural diversity within military ranks and the pivotal role it plays in shaping the future of recruitment and representation.
 
 This episode goes beyond the battlefield, revealing the transformative journeys of individuals who overcame childhood adversity and achieved success within the world of Special Operations. We dissect the phenomenon of post-traumatic growth and the resilience that emerges from life's adversities, particularly in the military. Recognizing the emotional and mental terrains that service members from marginalized communities must traverse, we highlight the essential support networks and the mentorship that pave the way for empowerment and success.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

security hot podcast. Let's go. You're dealing with an expert in guerrilla warfare, with a man who's the best with guns, with knives, with his bare hands, a man who's been trained to ignore ignore weather to live off the land job with disposed of enemy personnel to kill period.

Speaker 1: 0:26

Dude, I gotta tell you I'm excited to have you back on. I've been watching the trailer non-stop for black ops. Uh, you guys are creating something. That's fucking powerful, man. Uh. So, ruben ayala, welcome back to our podcast. But, man, tell us, how did you guys kick off this idea Like? This is. It's beautiful to see people reach amazing milestones and be like, okay, what's the next thing we're going to do? And making this documentary. That's pretty big.

Speaker 2: 0:59

Yes, huge undertaking and I'm glad to be back on the show with you. Denny, I appreciate you extending the invite Always great, chopping it up with you Absolutely To answer your question. The way we came up with the idea for the documentary was kind of tongue in cheek, but it was just an opportunity afforded to us. I always give a lot of props to Jennifer Ballou. She was the deputy chief of staff for the National Veterans Memorial Museum. She's now the deputy director for the upcoming Global War on Terror Memorial that's being constructed in DC.

Speaker 2: 1:39

So last year, in January 2023, she just suggested to us like hey, think outside of the box. You guys have a lot of experience. If you had an opportunity to do a museum exhibit, what would it be? And between Chris and I we were just joking and we said, man, we should do a play on words Black O, but do a story about minorities and soft, because you'd never see that. You never see guys that look like us on the YouTube channels. You know it's either the typical, you know soft operator talking about their experience in Hell Week or the worst firefight they've ever been in, or telling you know the same Sears school or Ranger school story for the other time Right, and it's always the last, hardest class. You know what?

Speaker 1: 2:28

I'm talking about. Yes, abso-fucking-lutely it is. It is so. And, and you know, young men specifically love seeing that. They do they. They love that there's that warrior calling. But there's a lot of warriors out there that don't look like john wayne, that don't come from the background of john wayne, that look a whole hell of a lot different. And man, I I know you probably had the same uh situation when I was looking for those great heroes to look up to. Growing up it was rambo, it was dutch on predator, but that movie introduced me to two badass motherfuckers that didn't look like everybody else.

Speaker 1: 3:16

And the moment, the moment you see carl weathers in that iconic, like arm clasp, it's like oh shit, like this is, this is powerful, like it's, it's something amazing to see, like wide representation. And then when you experience it, when you actually experience it, like when you get to regiment, and you finally see like oh shit, I've been waiting my whole life, like I never met another fucking panamanian, let alone a good friend, until I got to seventh group and then both of us were like the only two people that got sent to korea. Out of all the people to send to korea, two panamanians go out there when things went haywire back into, you know, back during donald trump's presidency. That was like one of the craziest things, but like when you wait your whole life and you finally experience it, that's a great fucking feeling and that's something that you're able to bring to like the entire world now yeah, it's cool, man.

Speaker 2: 4:17

Uh, chris and I were just talking about it yesterday. We we literally came up with the plan for black ops. It was snowing, we were on a bridge. I don't know the name of the river, but the National Veterans Memorial Museum sits on the river in Columbus, ohio. It's cold as shit, man. It had to be gusting and 20 knots. It was like 10 degrees on this bridge.

Speaker 2: 4:43

We were just planning this thing out, but we never realized the impact that we would have with it when we were sat there planning it on the bridge. And just short of the past seven days, I've had conversations with three different general officers who I've never met. They've only seen the trailer, they immediately get it and they're throwing their resources and influence behind it because they've never seen anything like it. And as we've gone through in development of this, I realized quickly that, wow, nothing has been put together representing so many people who have basically have been left unheard for a long period of time.

Speaker 2: 5:30

We have a subject in the film who stated to us in tears that over the past 40 years, nobody that looks like him has ever been able or has come around to just get his story. And for us, putting this together and giving them voice means a lot to them, a lot of them, really. What they care about is just to not be forgotten. So that's the significance of what we're doing. We didn't realize these were the second and third order effects, and the documentary hasn't dropped yet. So what the splash is going to be, man, I have no idea.

Speaker 1: 6:11

I'm excited for it, I think it's going to be huge. But what you just said is so fucking impactful Not to be forgotten, not to be relegated to a small section of a bookstore. That's a powerful feeling. Not to be relegated to, like a small section of a bookstore, like that's. That's a powerful feeling.

Speaker 1: 6:28

Understanding that man, like our legacy like, incorporates so many different faces, so many different people, but we only look and promote one face, one idea of what it looks like, and thousands of stories are out there, thousands of stories. But time is one cruel son of a bitch and it continues to march to skiggy airman. That's a great example. I mean, yeah, we're only now starting to have successful movies and stories being told of the things they did, um, but they're dying off. I think we only have one or two surviving members, and that's important history, that's american history.

Speaker 1: 7:14

That people, and it's like man, like we're losing it. And if we look, if we look into our own jiwa era, if we, if we look to our own livedwa era, if we look to our own lived experience I mean what you guys have done with the cash line, that's huge, that's amazing. That's forever being brought back Every time you wear that shirt. Every time you go out there, people see that they're like, oh shit. And they Google it and they see it oh shit, this is not navy seal. This isn't some high speed. No, this is a bad motherfucker that gave his life like that's important, agreed.

Speaker 2: 7:54

you know, one cool thing about the project is, uh, we've been, we've been able to to tap into guys who came in in the 50s. So the cool part and I'll touch base on kind of the premise of how we broke down the project because it's a huge undertaking and, for those who aren't familiar with it, black Ops what we're doing is we're chronicling stories from underrepresented veterans who served in special operations. Why did we decide to do that? Number one, that's the community that we know, because that's where we came from. But number two, more importantly, when you look at special operations as a whole, within the conventional military, it is a small population. That's one part of it. Within that small population, the minority footprint is even smaller and it's not equitable when it's compared to the conventional counterpart. And it's really runs parallel to what corporate America is dealing with right now is how to creatively and effectively include diversity and equity amongst their ranks. So it's not just hiring people because they look a certain way, it's getting the right person in the right job, and that is the challenge that I think SOCOM has now. So we decided just to take a finer look at that and because we're not from the military institution. We're just a private entity and we can kind of just play where we want. We're able to just tell it like it is and we don't have to sugarcoat anything.

Speaker 2: 9:35

So, talking to these folks, we realized that our story takes place from 1948 to present. And the reason that we chose 1948 is because that is the year that executive order 9981 was instituted and that's the desegregation of the military. And when that occurred, that started to slowly open the doors for underrepresented veterans to go into these newly created special warfare units. But really it isn't until Vietnam that JFK addresses Congress and says, hey, I need more special warfare units to stand up quickly and I need more special warfare soldiers to go to Vietnam. And at that point it opens up the floodgates, the good old boy network just to go to vietnam. And at that point it opens up the floodgates, the good old boy network is out the window and we need bodies. And that's when you start seeing all these cool guys that we, that we, uh, that we worship now as heroes going into into the soft units.

Speaker 1: 10:39

and that's where black ops begins yeah, when we look back to the Vietnam that was like one of the most pivotal eras is and you can damn it and you can you can say, well, I mean, they just wanted bodies. Yeah, you know, it paved the way, it gave the opportunity and it allowed individuals to show up and say you know what, I belong here, this is where I belong here, this is where I belong and there's no getting away with it. When you're able to get into those organizations, improve and show that this is where I am needed and this is where I'm going to serve, then you build the brotherhoods and then you understand, you're able to change dogma that's been instilled in individuals Like like, oh shit, like you're just another human being, you're just like me and fuck, that's how. That's where the real change and I think a lot of us experience that. You know, the military is still an amazing place for you to be able to meet people that never understood the difference between panamanian or mexican or cuban or hard during. And you're like, yeah, no, like we're not the fucking same.

Speaker 1: 11:47

And it's that being able to take that that moment of of uh, just compassionate understanding and be like, oh, you're, you just don't know. You've never met somebody that looks like us or or comes from a place like where I come from. And you know, I say it all the time Like there's a lot of bad, but there's a say it all the time like there's a lot of bad but there's a lot of fucking good too. There's a lot of brotherhood. That gets. It gets built in these units because you're able to look at somebody and say, holy shit, like you're, just like me, you're driven and you are here to do good, just like me and you. You kill the stigma, you kill the lies, the ignorance, being able to serve with so many amazing people.

Speaker 2: 12:29

Yeah, and I'll share with you one cool thing that we've learned to talking to the Mac VSOG vets, the Force Recon guys and some SEALs, is with Vietnam you had the draft and it is a factual statement that with the draft the heaviest casualties were Blacks and Latinos in Vietnam. It was a meat grinder. So a lot of these guys that volunteered to go to the SF units, to the CEOs, to force recon, they did it because they knew they were going to go in a professional outfit that had a higher chance of survival. So that is a mind-blowing statistic right there that, okay, I'm going to get drafted. So I'm going to do my best to put my destiny in my own hands and I'm going to go with the most professional outfit that I can find and challenge myself along the way.

Speaker 2: 13:29

Yes, back home we're dealing with Jim Crow laws. We're dealing with, you know, a civil rights bill that may or may not get passed. You know I live in Fayetteville and every time I drive into Cumberland County there's a huge billboard on I-95 that says welcome to Klan country. But you know what? I still go into work every day and these are all things that we've captured on, on, on on video You're going to see in the documentary that I never heard before, because you know why Nobody is documenting these stories. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 14:00

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:01

Nobody's crazy.

Speaker 1: 14:05

It's crazy, we. It's not about erasing history. It's about understanding what occurred. History is brutal, violent, ugly, nasty. But if you don't highlight it, if you don't go back and revisit and talk and engage with people understanding what it was like, what's going to happen? Yeah, It'll feel good for a little bit when you hide it and you glance over it and you erase it from the textbooks, but then what happens when it comes back? What happens when it comes back?

Speaker 1: 14:34

It's not about trying to change and erase it. It's about capturing it and understanding that these people are still here and, while we have them here, understand and listen to their stories, share them. And it's not about destroying and everybody thinks that. It's about bringing people to reckoning and making people feel a certain way. It's like no, but you have to be able to face it. If you get a nasty, disgusting gangrene infection, you don't just ignore it. You do everything you can to stave off that infection. You clean it out and you constantly look and make sure that it's good, it's healed, and then you can recover. But you're not going to do anything if you're still ignoring it.

Speaker 2: 15:16

Yeah, I agree, and everything what you're talking about is, I think, is affecting recruiting numbers today.

Speaker 2: 15:23

And if you look at, you know so, as a as a whole, the military I think everybody knows that there's a recruiting crisis right now.

Speaker 2: 15:30

But you know, just looking at our community cause that's where the project is focused Um, I don't know what the recruitment, the recruitment, um, you know, uh, shortcomings are for SOCOM, that we really don't deal with that. But I can imagine if the military as a whole was having recruitment issues, my assumption would be that probably SOF is too. But I know for certain that on the recruitment efforts for minorities, there is an issue and when we look at history, a lot of it boils down to number one disinformation, a lot of bad assumptions. So I think one of the instates that we can have is to say to our communities is that this is a cool way for you to go about having a career in the military. There's a lot of misconceptions that this institution is racist inherently, and this and that and a third, and we just try to break those things down but utilize history and factual data along the way to show you that you can thrive yeah data along the way to show you that you can thrive.

Speaker 2: 16:47

Yeah, we can't carry the rock for you, but we can help mentor you by giving you access to all of these individuals and you can listen to them and formalize your own best opinion. Because if you go to YouTube like you, like we talked about earlier you're going to get one side of the story and when everybody looks the same, it's hard for you to envision yourself in CAG or in Steels, or or we're in Marsoc, whatever the case may be. So yeah, man, I think we're on the same sheet of music with that yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 17:17

And the uh. The idea that it doesn't matter, that we can put anybody in those commercials and we'll get the same recruitment that's just preposterous. It really is. It worked during a time of war it really did, but we're not a war anymore. At least declare war.

Speaker 2: 17:37

That's all different. Not yet.

Speaker 1: 17:40

But if you look at it from a point of how are you going to recruit me and how are you going to speak to me, that's a huge thing. That is a huge problem that we're facing. We're not like. If you want real individuals that are committed to achieving something that, is upfront, seems impossible, you have to be able to search for them and represent them in your commercials and in your strategy, and we're not doing that. Um it just that, that's just a plain fact. Uh, and I'll be the first to say, like now, if it's really important to you, if you really want the best candidates, you have to be willing to look at everybody individualistically and understand the culture too. That's a big thing.

Speaker 1: 18:28

This isn't the John Wayne era. That's gone. That's one of the most frustrating things that I found in this project project. When people think of a Green Beret, they still think of that movie, they still think of John Wayne, they still think of all right, pilgrims, let's go.

Speaker 1: 18:44

And it's like I never, ever, served with anyone that looked like that. I served with a lot of Puerto Ricans. I served with a lot of Colombians. I served with a lot of white people too, a lot of black people, but we're not represented. The thing that we're not represented the the.

Speaker 1: 19:00

The thing that we're missing is something that's a call to action to the reality of what special operations is, of what we really look like. Because, yeah, that is something that, bro, I wish people would be able to, to understand how powerful it is to dog on the only white dude in your team that doesn't speak Spanish or isn't proficient and you realize like, holy shit, we're. We're really a melting pot in this team room. We're really a mixed group of individuals, but the TV shows and the movies don't show it, they don't do it enough service, and I'm like man, like if they really just focused on the reality of what it was like, but what it is like in a lot of these team rooms, your recruiting numbers would go up no, I, I agree, man, and and to your point, you just, you just spark something is so because there's guys out there that are being represented right now.

Speaker 2: 19:56

so, and and no shade on david goggins, but I'm gonna use him as an example because he's very prominent. Yeah, so with dave, dave as an individual, you know, I'm a kid in their city, I'm looking to be in the seals. I look at dave. That shit is like he's on mars, you know, yeah, you're running 30 miles a day and you're telling me that I fucking suck and this, and that you know, when you look at it, what's he doing for the culture. But you know, I read his book too. Dave isn't for the culture, dave is for Dave, you know, and he's giving you his perspective.

Speaker 2: 20:39

So when you go out and you look for people that look like you and you land on a David Goggins or you land on see what I'm saying I can't even think of anybody else because there's, there's not many, and the guys that are out there, they're repping themselves as a brand and that brand is so far gone that, you know, you, you go out there and you try to run 30 miles or 50 miles. Man, that shit is beyond me, you know. So I think that is an issue, and by no means do they need to take that mantle and have that social responsibility, because each individual is going to do what they want, but that is a gap that we've identified at UCA, too, a lot of us are. The cool part is is that a lot of us are working in our own space, but now you and I have a relationship and we can expand on this and and figure out the best ways to, you know, push these messages out.

Speaker 1: 21:33

It's exactly the uh. The thing that I see is the thing that spoke to me about SF as a young kid in 82nd isn't the appealing narrative that we need. I was already in and a lot of those guys had the same idea. I need to go somewhere where I can actually be able to affect the battlefield. If I'm going to do another year-long deployment, I'm not going to do it with an organization that is just not as effective in combat. I'm going to challenge myself and we're missing.

Speaker 1: 22:16

That narrative doesn't work anymore. It doesn't speak to the kid that's sitting in the environments where, like shit, what are my options? I want to do something greater. I want to be of service, maybe I just I want to see the world. I don't want to do something conventional. There's not a narrative reaching out to that kid. There's not a narrative that's talking to the kid from an inner city or maybe from a really bad background that says you can be of service, you can escape this life. If I would have heard that message as a kid oh shit, I don't have family that's supporting me. I don't have an avenue out of this fucking nightmare. Where do I go?

Speaker 1: 22:58

Here's an example of men that were just like you, as young men, you can achieve this. You can be part of this brotherhood. Holy shit, we could craft that commercial right now. We could do that and I don't understand why we don't do it. And I get it. Service is a big undertaking and going in a soft is giant and pop seems impossible thing to do. But there's a lot of kids out there that could do it. There's a lot of young men that are looking for that challenge. They just don't meet the stereotypical ideal candidate and we're missing out. We're missing out on that talent because I've seen them. I've seen them on a team. I've seen them on a team. I've seen those individuals.

Speaker 2: 23:43

One of the coolest things I've seen this week. You know this, this, the past, uh, the past week we've been in in post-production, you know we have. We're getting ready for our, our Amazon drop in June and we have episodes that will be part of season one. And one of the coolest things I've seen, to your point, we have retired First Sergeant Shirley Baez, who's part of season one. She's retired civil affairs First Sergeant and her story and her trailer it does just that. It talks. She's from. She's from brooklyn, new york.

Speaker 2: 24:24

Originally from dominican republic, immigrated to united states, grew up in brooklyn, like jefferson heights type, riding the, a train, the real jenny from the block and going through her story and the visuals we have are so cool Just what it's like living in an inner city, having to take the train to school and shit is so bad at home that you drop out of high school and you are running the streets. You don't know what your future is, what, what, what future, what the future is going to bring for you. Yeah, and all of a sudden you see a recruiting poster and it says free college, free tuition. You know and and and. That right there, uh, leads to the language that our community, black and Brown community understands is that that is.

Speaker 2: 25:19

That seems to be the initial gateway for a lot of folks. Right? But take it a step further. Shirley goes in to the military as a support personnel. She starts seeing you know these special operations units, you know that's their main customers as an administrative, you know a soldier, and she takes a leap of faith and she tries out and she thrives. You know she's a master blaster, she's multiple, you know, combat vet and now she's killing it in a real estate game in Florida. So that when I saw that, I'm like we are onto something, this shit is gold and I can't wait for everybody to see that, because that right, there is what is missing man. It's the human component of why people like us do what we do.

Speaker 1: 26:08

Yeah, and it's, it's understanding, like the connection points too. And this is not to say that every soft professional has this, and this is not to say that every soft professional has this. And I've been saying this a lot because through interviews things get exposed. I'm like, and I jot it down, there is a high instance in occurrence of childhood adversity within our subgroup or soft professionals, and that doesn't mean and stereotypically people think that think that okay, if you have a high likelihood of childhood adversity, you're going to jail, you're going to be a drug addict. No, actually, what we found out and within a specific study in the adverse childhood experience in the a study, they find that these individuals are actually able to have this post-traumatic growth that sends them into these high-achieving career fields. It tells them that this experience they have as kids says fuck it, you got to go, you got to do something big, you got to go, you got to find a way out of this. And I'm finding a lot of us that found our way out of the environment through going into the military and then furthering going in the soft because of a multitude of the things that you shared about some of our older veterans. If I'm going to survive this thing. It's not here in a regular line company, it's not here in this environment of mediocrity. I have to challenge myself and I have to go in the soft and soft is better for it. It's grown because of us. It's developed and been so successful not because of guys named fucking Chris Bott, bottlesworth is guys like alvarez guys, it's hernandez, enriquez, it's guys that have gone through some shit and it's it's those individuals that I looked up to that I came in. I mean like and funny anecdote like these individuals are so impactful and they come from such at challenging backgrounds. They stick with you and they even stick with individuals that didn't have these great experiences and in year, you know, years later, in their own reckoning, they'll think to themselves like hey, why was it these leaders are so good? Oh shit, they came from these very, very hard fucking backgrounds.

Speaker 1: 28:44

Like the, the ability to recruit and then, yeah, like it taps into a whole bunch of other things that we got to talk about is like our, you know, being able to heal from our trauma because people coming from adverse childhoods, coming from problematic upbringings, they're going to carry and hey, living with it myself, you're going to carry a lot more than your counterparts. You can heal, you can recover from this and you can make it through this career. You can make it through this job and undertaking. But we're ultimately richer for having them. We're better off because, at the end of the day, even though they already have a little bit more in their bucket, they're able to look at guys that don't have that traumatic experience and they're being challenged.

Speaker 1: 29:24

And they're the first ones they're the absolute first ones are willing to say, hey, man, we got this, keep going, keep pushing, we're almost there. They're some of the most optimistic individuals. We're doing ourselves a disservice if we're not willing to start having that discussion and digging down into science and realizing that it's no longer the water polo or the elite athlete that we should be looking at constantly. Sometimes it's looking at the kids that are in inner city and realizing, okay, there's a different aptitude and a different amount of survivability that we can get and it's mutually benefiting. It's mutually benefiting because we're giving them the opportunity to thrive and be part of a greater organization. And that's, to me, my own little detective work. I just feel like, hey, the two things do come together and it proves, in the pudding with a lot of the guys that we work with with a lot of the guys that we work with.

Speaker 2: 30:21

Yeah, I agree, man, and you know to to to tag onto that too. Um, one thing I found, uh, with this project, and then just you know my personal experiences is that I think when you look at the military as a whole and you look at the recruitment, a lot of emphasis is placed on, you know, your individual patriotism and your sense of duty to country. I'm going to tell you right now, all that shit is out the window when you're dealing with our communities in a minority segment. You know you're looking at Native Americans, you're looking at black and browns, you know Asian community. Really, what's driving it is is a different sense of commitment and professionalism that you have to be able to speak to and respect that.

Speaker 2: 31:08

When I'm looking at the patriotism of what I'm doing, it's my community, it may be my block in Brooklyn that I'm representing and oh, by the way, I'm bringing my Puerto Rican flag with me, or my Dominican flag, or Panamanian flag or Jamaican flag, and you have to respect that and that right there. I think if we can start tapping into that understanding that this is what you're bringing with you, it's going to strengthen the organization because, at the end of the day, guess what? Where are you going to do the bulk of your deployments? It ain't in Hoke County, you know. So you're going to places where the majority of the people don't look like you. They look like these guys that you know. You maybe are giving a side eye to and and there's truth to power in that, and I think if we can embrace what those folks bring to the table, it's going to attract more people to want to come and work in these circles, and I feel like there's not a lot of conversations about that.

Speaker 1: 32:15

Not at all. There's not a lot of understanding of that cultural identity. I'm on the opposite side of that A lack in it due to a really rough upbringing where culture was removed, completely removed. Like, hey, you can't speak Spanish in this house, you can't talk, we don't want you to talk about anything about your life in panama. This is you're american. Now, this is it like, don't associate, don't talk. Like that's the opposite end of the spectrum. You removed an identity from somebody. That's at some point that person has to come to reckoning and that's a painful experience to have to deal with.

Speaker 1: 33:01

On the flip side of that, you have people that come here and well-established family groups that celebrate their culture, they're proud of it, that identify with it, that are bringing a richness to their neighborhoods, to everybody they interact with neighborhoods, to everybody they interact with. It's not just being one thing and only owning this identity, it's being able to embrace both. And people don't understand the importance of that. They don't understand what that does for our community. And I get it. Patriotism is important, being an American is important, but why can't we celebrate where that family came from, where that individual has roots from? That's just as important. That family is established in the United States, but they brought their culture with them. They celebrate it on a daily basis. It's a part of their DNA when they enlist in the military.

Speaker 1: 33:56

It's not about killing that. It's about figuring out how we can promote that and allow it to thrive. You're already going to be asked to give up your citizenship and you know, to be part of a, a um, you know an organization where you have to have that high security clearance. Like that's a deeply impactful move. Like I remember dudes talking about that when we were going and and applying to go into the Q course. Like that's a huge thing and people don't understand. Like, yeah, you're making that move so that you can show your allegiance and you can't be utilized by, you know, an adversary. That's a big thing. That's a huge thing. And people don't talk about it and they don't understand, like the impact and how to properly bring that into discussion.

Speaker 2: 34:42

that's just one of the many things that we see that just doesn't get talked about yeah, and you know I I can't dog the military completely, because I I think they're doing a better job of it and that is the positive side of the conversation. I think that as the years go on, things are getting better. Is the force becoming more efficient? That's a different story. I don't have the data for, but the visuals that I see, it seems like as people from these communities go into positions of influence or they can affect policy, we're starting to see those changes and hopefully, you know, a decade from now, the the conversation's different, or we're not having the same conversations, I should say Exactly, but I think we're. I think we're getting into a better space. But when we look at the world as a whole, we look at the uncertainty of a lot of things, of potential conflicts and stuff, and we're in a recruitment crisis. Are we getting there fast enough? I don't know.

Speaker 1: 35:53

I don't think so and it's sad to see the force dwindle down, especially soft Like I will always, always love and hold that organization to a high standard and always look to my time on a team fondly but we are not doing what we need in order to get like the right people in there. I think there's a lot of knee-jerk reactions to recruitment campaigns when they can just take a page from our own book. Bring it back to the basics. Bring it back to the basics. Shed the idea of if I see one more frigging John Wayne poster, I'm just going to lose my frigging mind. Freaking John Wayne poster, I'm just going to lose my freaking mind.

Speaker 1: 36:44

Highlight what real soft professionals look like. Highlight their stories. Exactly what you guys are doing. We can do it right now. There are individuals right now that I served with whose stories would freaking, shock the United States and be like holy shit, that's a badass individual from an insane background and he's an E8 now in Special Forces. Holy shit, these are our guys, these are our defenders. This is awesome, but we don't see it. We just do not do a great job of highlighting it.

Speaker 1: 37:22

I think it would be a great thing to see them kind of take a page from your book? I would really like to see, because they're active on all social media channels. They're everywhere, like, dude, just highlight more, just do a quick segment and I get it op, security and everything. But there's guys that are no longer on a team that you can highlight and be like, hey, this is the story of master science so-and-so, or csm so-and-so, absolutely like those are things that have real impact. You got to be able to go where the kids are right now and or the young people are, and sadly that's tiktok, instagram, social media and reddit. And if, if, you could have an AMA with these individuals, how impactful would that be?

Speaker 2: 38:05

You're spot on man, you know I'm I'm reminded of a story uh, told to me by Remo Butler and uh, retired general Reno Butler for those who don't know, he's part of our he's, he's one of the subjects of season one and when he was the SWCC training group commander they had he was telling us about there was some gentleman, some high VIP, coming to visit the schoolhouse and he had a meet with the commander. So the guy gets to the office, he talks to the secretary I'm here to see Colonel Butler. He's like, yeah, he's in his office. So the dude goes to the office, looks in and Remo has his, his BDU top off and is hanging and he's in the office just sitting on his sofa. Dude goes back out, goes to the secretary hey, colonel Butler is not in the office. And the lady's like he's in the office. He goes in, she goes back, colonel Butler is not in his office. And she walks him to the office and he's sitting right there and the guy is like surprised, for the obvious reason Colonel butler, black man, and he did not expect that a black man would be commanding the sf schoolhouse. And then when he leaves she, he tells the secretary he's got a lot of black art on his wall, perplexed Buffalo, soldier, prince and stuff like that, and he was just you know.

Speaker 2: 39:47

He told us the story, which is you know, just, we're just just talking about how bad the stereotypes were during that time. This is like 1999. Okay, and now, in 2024, still have those same misconceptions and stereotypes. Man, and I think you are 100% right. One of the instates that we hope will happen is that. So DOD editing film. No, the hardest part of this project has been recruiting people willing to talk. Yeah, okay, everybody thinks they're still a fucking secret squirrel. The truth of the matter is is we're civilians now and helicopter is not landing on your yard. It's not landing on my yard in the event that, you know, the next conflict breaks out and they're saying Ruben, we need you. This is a massive national security. Shit ain't happening.

Speaker 1: 41:10

So, yeah, that is that. Oh man, if you're a veteran listening to this right now, whether you're soft or conventional, please, I see your post under every news post and every update. No one's coming for you at the start of the next crisis. Your most important job right now is to be a good dad, a good husband, a great friend, a provider, a member of your community. That is you, that is your mission, that is your calling. Crush it every single day, freaking. Do your con op to go out there and donate, be a contributing member of your organization. That's your mission set and you should be proud of it.

Speaker 1: 41:57

No one's going to be landing a helicopter in your backyard and it goes for me. No one's. No one's. Oh, chief, we need your back. No, fucking no. The my picture and everything in that that looked and had anything that had of my name on it has already been removed from the team room. Everything. You're no longer part of the organization. Yeah, the best thing you could do is just be a great representation of the organization you were a part of and then focus on your community, your family and the people around you and foster new relationships, new friendships. Show people what it's like to be a positive, freaking male role model. Be willing to be the counter to those jackasses on the Bonner Day Night Project where they charge 20 grand to mentor men. That's not mentorship, that is just gross abuse of individuals that are desperately looking for mentorship man. So sorry I had to throw that in there.

Speaker 2: 42:57

So yeah, no one's coming to grab you when the next mission kicks off, that's okay, yeah man, some people's egos are so big that they actually think that's going to happen and, to echo what you just stated, that is our role, that we see ourselves now.

Speaker 2: 43:15

We are now becoming the elder statesmen, the great beers, whatever it is that you want to call it, and our we found our niche, which is storytelling. You know, we we said from day one we will not try to become a safe space for people to be able to share their stories and share their journey just because it boils down to mentorship, because these are things that we didn't have and I think, when I look at what we've created with Black Ops, that is what the subjects of the film see this as it's mentorship. You know, remo Butler said it really well don't see this as it's mentorship. You know, remo Butler said it really well what we owe the community now is mentorship and given a hand that we weren't necessarily given when we came in. You know, we got the, the oldest and my guy had zero mentorship. He came in with blinders A kid coming in in 2024, you have the whole world available to you and if we can make it a little bit easier to find that safe space for them, I think that that's our role.

Speaker 1: 44:41

Absolutely. And we can sit here and talk about how media isn't that important, how TV shows aren't that important, but yeah, they, freaking are. A movie has such a huge reach. I mean, there's how many countless action movies have led the people enlisting or trying to become a Navy SEAL, or trying to become a Ranger, trying to be a Green Beret Tons of people Everybody has that story of when they saw first time they saw a special ops guy on the big screen or on a TV show.

Speaker 1: 45:18

That's a powerful thing and I really do think that we need to start being more active and in getting shedding that quiet, professional, you know mantra and understanding that, yeah, it's not about sharing stories of going down range and doing the job. It's about showing people that they can achieve the same greatness, they can achieve the impossible that they can live to succeed and achieve something that others say, no, you can't do it. Kid, it's not for you. No, it is for you If you want it. It is for you If you're willing to try out.

Speaker 1: 45:54

Because let me tell you something as much as we complain about the Q course getting softer and easier, it's going to be challenging, it always will be, it always will be, and if you can inspire and motivate and it's not about giving somebody the cheat code, no, it's just inspiration, it's mentorship and that's what we're supposed to do as men. That's something that was handed down to us from the beginning of time. But we're just, we've learned and been conditioned to be hands-off, to not go into space and say, hey, if you're interested in going into special forces, I, I can give you some guidance. I mean, we have tons of workout groups and programs. We will get you selection ready. And hey, more power to you.

Speaker 2: 46:43

Yeah, now I concur, man, and you bring up a pretty solid point of the majority of folks sharing their journeys or their stories are talking about very small blips in a career. Are talking about very small blips in a career. So you spent 20 years in the military as a bottom line and you've deployed and you've been in contact and you've done something significant down range. You're talking hours, maybe maybe days, but for the majority of us, you're talking hours of an event that has lasted over a 20-year period, and I think that there's more gold to be extracted from that 20-year period and post-20-year or maybe what happened before, than versus focusing on a couple of hours of significance when you were downrange, you know. Or talking about the worst day of your life.

Speaker 2: 47:41

Yeah, and that has become so weird to me Like I don't like talking about those worst periods, not even with my friends who were there with me, because it puts us in a bad space. Yeah, I'd rather focus on the good we're doing now, or telling funny stories of how fucked up I was when I was a youth. You know, there's a lot to be learned from that and I think, if we can normalize that, that's another key thing that we can do, as now, mentors on this side of the house. What do you think about that?

Speaker 1: 48:22

Absolutely. You hit it right there. It's such a our minds are wired towards negativity. Just a solid understanding of psychology. Like nowadays we are more, it's more likely that we'll stop on the story or Instagram post that has something inflammatory and violent and chaotic and we're geared for it and we want to like it, we want to watch it and we want to sit down and watch that Green Beret Navy SEAL Ranger sit down in that chair and tell us the deep, intimate details of losing a friend or taking a life being blown up. But we don't want to hear how that person overcame adversity, how they became resilient, how they grew, how they came back home, how they picked themselves up and put all the pieces together to become a better husband, become a father again, to find purpose. And we have to do everything we can to counter the narrative, do everything we can to highlight the post-traumatic growth, the good things, the part of the journey that's beautiful, that is void of the explosion, the traumatic event, and that's something we can all do. We just have to be cognizant and be willing to say you know what? I don't want to put another tragic story that highlights just the traumatic events. That highlights just the painful reality of what combat is, because kids don't need to see that. Or a veteran that hasn't gotten help doesn't need to relieve that, because that's something that I've seen too. The person at home that hasn't gotten help seeks that. They want to see it, they want to watch somebody relive it, and that's painful in itself, and then trauma begets more trauma and then maybe he doesn't feel like he did enough because of what Tim Kennedy did. It's like I'm just a piece of shit. I'm not like him. You're not like him, and that's okay. I'm grateful that You're not like him, and that's okay. And I'm grateful that you're not like him, because there's only you, regardless of what you've gone through and if this hits home to anybody listening it's okay that you're not Tim Kennedy, that you're not Marcus Luttrell, that you're not some notable warrior that's been promoted and highlighted and that's not to take away anything from these individuals. That's just to say that you're worthy too, that you deserve healing, that you deserve understanding, that you're a great service member too, that you're a great veteran. Go heal.

Speaker 1: 50:48

Don't find yourself revisiting these shows and revisiting the footage from Ukraine or the footage from Syria. Overcome that desire. Combat the conditioning. You don't need to watch exploding IEDs over and over and over again. Delete it from your feed. Close out Instagram, go outside. Be willing to do something that's positive. Nobody's challenging that. It's hard to see it. It's hard to see people because it's all about likes, it's all about metrics, it's all about repeated hey, I need to get those numbers up and I get it. It's your job, it's your livelihood. But if you're the end user, if you're the consumer, fight against it, go against it. Be willing to see something that's good. Be willing to hear an amazing story of resilience over reliving the worst days, and it's okay if you're listening to somebody's growth in their journey. But when it stops and it's only highlighting the same event over and just talking about the chaos and the pain and the misery, no, yeah, 100%.

Speaker 2: 51:57

One thing when we were on that bridge in Columbus Ohio just kind of discussing it, one concerted effort that we made was this would not be a bunch of war stories. Yeah, so we, episode one, we lay out it's mainly Chris, myself and Mike Clark uh who who's Mike Clark? Who's another SFOG? We lay the groundwork for what the documentary is about and we make it extremely clear in episode one that if you're here for war stories, then Black Ops is probably not for you. The golden thread for us is everything we've been discussing is that the journey is greater than the war stories and the value of mentorship, of what we're trying to do with this project for the individual is priority.

Speaker 2: 52:50

The second effect of that would be how can we better challenge the military? What can we? How can we better challenge the military? How can we better challenge SOCOM to take a look at how we deal with diversity and having A mission driven DE and I plan in place to get the right people in the right jobs Right. So, looking at looking at soft truths, you know humans are more important than hardware. How are we implementing that as a line of effort?

Speaker 2: 53:24

So when you watch the documentary, yeah, there'll be mentions of guys deploying, because that's the virtue, that's the, that's the, that's that's our job. Yep, but if you're looking for man, I shot this dude in the face and then that transitioned to my pistol, but it got shot out of my hand so I pulled out my, my Yarborough knife. It's not there. Um, some people will be disappointed because that's not what we are peddling with this product. It's. It's all about the human journey. We're trying to evoke emotion and we're trying to evoke a call to action, which is just that, like let's change the narrative, because the shit is played out.

Speaker 1: 54:07

Yeah, it is Um, yeah, our, our time in combat is no longer relevant the moment we the moment we withdrew from Afghanistan, the moment we walked away.

Speaker 1: 54:21

It's no longer relevant. And those finite details, those moments with your brothers on a team they're beautiful and no shade to anybody that shares them openly and constantly on big platforms. But the thing that you have to understand is you'll never, as a viewer, as a consumer of that media, you'll never truly understand that, you'll never be able to put yourself in that moment with those individuals and truly understand the gravity of what it means to be there in that moment with those individuals and truly understand the gravity of what it means to be there. That is something you can only experience if you sign up, boot up and go there and travel through time, because the conflict of tomorrow is not going to be the same thing that we endured and went through in Iraq or Afghanistan. It's gone. It was a moment in time. Some of us were very lucky and we survived it. We made it through.

Speaker 1: 55:19

Some of our brothers didn't, and I would argue that we do ourselves a disservice when we constantly peel back the veil and try to give and try to show what that was like in our best way, through spoken media, like a podcast, or through our own writing and shows I think we do a greater service to society, to our brothers and our sisters, focusing on the journey, how we became who we are, how we healed, how we recovered.

Speaker 1: 55:54

That is a greater endeavor to take on and ultimately, my bookshelf is filled with stories and you do have to touch in on some of the atrocities and things that you experience. But I can't give you that play by play and nobody really can give you that full experience to try to do something else. Be of service in a different way. Tell that story through a different lens. Be of service in a different way. Tell that story through a different lens. And that's why, ultimately, I think that this project is going to be very successful because it's not about just diving into trauma and combat. It's about showing the reality of individuals that have endured and grown and shown real grit and resilience in the face of something that none of us could ever experience in real life like that's.

Speaker 2: 56:43

I want to see that dude so we have probably one of the most interesting subjects of the films, a guy named robert zachary. He's a air force tacp. Zachary, he's an Air Force TACP. You're talking about right place, right time. He's damn near seven foot tall, huge black dude. Looks like he should be in the NFL At the start of 9-11, he happens to be in Fort Lewis and embedded with soft units there.

Speaker 2: 57:25

But the bottom line is this guy has the most combat experience out of anybody I've ever met. He has served with every soft unit you can think of, on the black side and the white side. He has earned the respect of all of his peers 10 times over. And when we started talking his journey in and out of these different organizations and how he had to be a chameleon at times, how he had to adapt, how his experiences growing up with hardship in the projects of you know, you know Nashville, tennessee, and then now, you know, finally retiring last year, becoming the co-author of SOCOM's new DNI action plan, of SOCOM's new DNI action plan, you know, is amazing.

Speaker 2: 58:22

And we hardly ever talked about war stories. And this guy, he was there in the initial invasion of Afghanistan. He was one of the horse soldiers, but you'll never know that he was one, he was going in when it was rogue. I mean, the guy is a, he's an anomaly, but again, you would never know. And spending time to talk with him and getting to hear his story, I'm really excited for people to see that episode because we found somebody, we found a diamond in the rough who never, we never knew existed and and we never talked war stories man, it would. It was just so fucking cool to hear how he was able to just be at the right place, right time and and how his personal journey helped them thrive, was huge man and you know and you know and that's, and that's that's talking power to your point there.

Speaker 1: 59:20

Yeah, Real quick. Um, I don't want to keep you on for too long. I know you got probably a million things to do, but talking about journeys, I want to ask you how did you find yourself in SF?

Speaker 2: 59:36

Oh, how did I end up in SF? Oh, that's a whole weird story in and of itself. I'm also an anomaly. So you know I never intended to go into SF because I never thought that I could make it in SF. It seemed like too tall of a mountain to climb, so I went in as an infantry officer.

Speaker 2: 59:59

As many know, I spent, you know, years, my formative years in 82nd, as a platoon leader and deploying. But I was a branch detail guy and for those who don't know what branch detail is, it's a. It's a. It's an opportunity in the military for officers to place junior officers in combat roles but then fill them in support roles where there are gaps as you progress in the ranks. But they want officers who have combat arms experience in soft side positions. So I was a signal branch detail guy. I did my infantry time. I got detailed to signal.

Speaker 2: 1:00:44

I went to the captain's career course and I got stationed at a first of the 10 special forces group and I was extremely out of my window. By then I was getting ready to go into command. Extremely out of my window. By then I was getting ready to go into command. I was a very. I wasn't a senior captain, but I was already, you know, more senior than than most uh SF guys. So anyways, to make a long story short, I saw what special forces did up close when I was in Stuttgart and I hated my job in signal as a.

Speaker 2: 1:01:16

I was a horrible communication officer, I sucked, I gave it a shot man. I'm that battalion F6 who was getting yelled at at every staff meeting because I can't make bombs or whatever. But no, I wasn't that bad. But my battalion commander was extremely supportive of me submitting a waiver. I submitted a waiver, I had everybody's unconditional support, I had pretty good rapport with everybody there and a good reputation and my waiver was approved to be an out-of-year group waiver candidate for SF.

Speaker 2: 1:01:54

Uh stipulation that I could not fail out of SFAS or the Q course. I had to be a one shot guy or else I would risk uh, becoming a, a, a promotion risk and and, and that's my journey. So my journey wasn't so much that I saw the green berets or I saw the invasion of 9-11, um, or I had some cool uncle or my dad was an SF guy. No, it was. I went to 110 and I'm like, wow, this is cool, this is. I think I can do this, and I had a couple of good NCOs there Zulus that took me under their wing and they gave me the encouragement to try out.

Speaker 1: 1:02:37

So that's how I ended up in sf oh yeah, and all it takes is just being surrounded by the right individuals that are willing to put a little bit of faith and mentorship into somebody. Um, that's a beautiful thing about it. Uh, I, I saw a lot of officers that got the same sort of mentorship. I remember seeing one it was one of our own that an officer down in the S3 one day and I'm like man, you, you already look like an SF guy, like you should go to selection. And so many individuals said the same thing and mentored him and gave him that understanding of like you could do this. And I think it was in a course of going down through like two trips, an Afghan trip and then a South American trip and I come back. That individual's now a detachment commander is like holy shit, awesome, you did do it. Now get to work. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:03:34

You know, some of the best SF guys I've seen have always been support guys, uh, who, who started out in a group because they get to see it firsthand. You know, there's not a lot of assumptions there. Um, you, you, you, you get to see, you get to see, you know how the cookies are made. You know, and I've always, I've always thought that, I've always said that, and, um, you know, I was grateful for my journey. I would not have ended up in SF had I not taken that job at first of the 10th. It was either go to Germany or go to Ranger Regiment, believe it or not. I'm very glad that I chose. I just wanted to go to germany and and, uh, it was either there or go to, uh, hunter army airfield and and I would have been fired, probably as a scientist that's a whole different episode.

Speaker 1: 1:04:35

that is a whole different episode in that organization. Well, man, uh, I got, I got some, some, uh, some stories to tell you offline. Ruben, thank you so much for being here today, man, I cannot wait to see this documentary. When does it come out again?

Speaker 2: 1:04:52

So June 21st um episode one will drop on Amazon prime and then every week after that we'll drop an episode.

Speaker 1: 1:05:01

Hell yeah, I can't wait for it. Thanks again, brother, and to everybody out there listening, thank you. Make sure you check it out and we'll see you all next time. Till then, take care, thank you. If you like what we're doing and you enjoying the show, don't forget to share us. Like us, subscribe and head on over to our Patreon, where you can be part of our community and get access to all of our episodes as soon as they drop. And remember we get through this together. Take care you, thank you.